Become a Sustainavore!

Eat for your health, the planet, and your values.

Become a Sustainavore!

Eat for your health, the planet, and your values.

Fanatics Hate Nuance

 

I needed some air after trying to record a podcast episode. My guest hung up on me. I spent some time pulling weeds in the carrot bed, including very nutritious and delicious purslane, which grows well in many parts of the world. I’m a big advocate of including more wild foods in the diet. Weeding is quite therapeutic.

My guest had a great conversation a few months back about veganism that I really enjoyed listening to, and an off-the-grid type lifestyle that is quite interesting to me. He had spent many years as a vegan himself and now he hunts and gathers the majority of his food. The rest of his diet, he explained, comes mostly from organic farms.

The show was off to a great start. He talked about his background and overall philosophies. He said that people in the ancestral health world don’t talk about it, but  the produce available in supermarkets is just as domesticated as our meat is. None of it grows in the wild, and the quality of nutrients in wild plants is far superior. I agree with him and talk about the importance of eating wild plants and hunting in my book.

He definitely dominated the conversation and it was hard for me to get a word in, but because he has his own show that often includes a long monolog, I didn’t think it was rude. But as the conversation continued, I realized that he seemed to assume I’m not educated or have never contemplated anything he was discussing. The fact is, I’ve read most of the books on his online bookshelf, and have spent a lot of time thinking about most of the topics he was schooling me on.

He then talked about how agriculture has led to the downfall of man; that civilization is the worst thing that has ever happened and it’s all because of agriculture. Hunter-gatherers, he explained, are able to keep their populations in check due to things like infant mortality. He grouped all agriculture into “bad” and seemed to feel that only hunter gatherers were “good.”

Now, I agree that humankind saw a huge shift since the beginning of agriculture, and that overpopulation is an issue on the planet. I totally agree with everything in the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, especially that we are overly human-centric, not recognizing that we too are animals, and that hunter gatherers were “leavers” and as soon as agriculture happened, we became “takers.” I’m not sure my guest realized I was on his side here, but I wanted to challenge him on one point. There are actually some benefits to domestication of animals and plants.

When I got a rare chance to squeeze a word in and said, “Well there is some nuance here, agriculture isn’t all evil.” I figured since he said in the beginning of the show that he did eat some food that wasn’t wild, we’d be on the same page here. I brought up a conversation I had with Joel Salatin last summer. I was asking him what he says to vegans when they accuse him of “taking advantage” of animals by keeping cattle and then harvesting them for his food. He told me that he sees nothing wrong with providing a good life for an animal, keeping it safe, and providing a humane death for it. Compared to hunting, Joel continued, where you’re not sure if you’ll actually catch anything and have to spend hours for the possibility of no returns, raising domestic animals allows him the freedom to read and write books. It would be a lot of work to hunt and gather all his food.

This is when things started to heat up. My guest didn’t like this at all. He asked me if I hunt. I told him that I fish, but I don’t actively hunt for all my food. He then said that hunting is much more efficient than all of the time you have to spend taking care of animals, that the farming of animals is incredibly labor intensive.

Really? Because that’s not my experience at all. Growing organic vegetables is pretty back breaking, but pasture-based animals are actually pretty easy.

I asked him if he’s ever raised pigs on pasture. He said no. I explained that they require very little maintenance, and practically take care of themselves. If I can give it a good life in the woods, very close to it’s wild habitat, yet keep it healthy and safe from predators, provide it with a quick and humane death, then feed a lot of people, I don’t see how this is “bad.”

He hung up. Then he messaged me on Skype that he’s not a good fit for my show. He was able to challenge me on the hunting but when I brought up a counterpoint, showing nuance and context, suggesting there might be another way of looking at things that disagreed with his viewpoint, he was unwilling to discuss it.

I really am not trying to pick on this guy. I’ve never invited someone on the show in order to embarrass them or set them up for a ambush debate. The fact is, I do think that we should eat more wild plants and animals. I also think that spending more time in nature is something that would benefit us greatly. Modern, industrial agriculture is pretty horrible for sure. We are destroying our soils, poisoning our waters, destroying biodiversity, and killing ourselves with too much processed food.

But, there are alternatives to chemical mono-crop farming and animals raised in factories. On our farm and many others like it, we’re building top soil and sequestering carbon by raising ruminants on grass. We raise a wide variety of unique organic vegetables and they’re much more nutritious than their grocery store equivalents.  We harvest weeds. We give people a connection to their food. We teach young people how to farm and appreciate the need for community-based agriculture. Because I don’t have to hunt and gather all of my food, I get to advise people on how to save their health through eating better food. I have time to write books, to actually make a difference (I hope) on a big scale.

Because of agriculture we have specialization. This means we have things like technology, like… podcasts and websites where my guest sells supplements, clothing, broth protein powder and ghee in order to support his lifestyle. Is selling an organic cotton t-shirt with his slogan, or bone broth powder made from CAFO chickens that ate grain more noble than raising pastured pigs? If he is directly benefitting financially from mono-cropping and “domestication,” then perhaps there’s a slight disconnect happening.

This also reminds me of a certain ethical vegan CEO of a large natural grocery chain that sells quite a bit of meat, most of which is not pasture-based. In this video, at 20:40, Mackey explains how he has no power to stop selling animals in the stores, because that’s what customers want. If he does truly believe that animals should not be raised for meat because of ethical reasons, then how can he profit off it?

I completely respect and agree that living closer to nature is important, but I also feel it’s critical to meet people where they are. Not everyone is going to give up their entire lifestyle and become a (mostly) hunter and gatherer. For those who aren’t, what can be done? How do we attempt to make change in our modern society? My strategy is to help people heal themselves by eating real food through my nutrition practice. Through my podcast and blog, to raise awareness that we don’t all need to be eating factory farmed meat and chemically grown vegetables and grains. This is why I support companies like Maple Hill Creamery, Epic, and The Good Kitchen. They are making radical change through building a clientele that appreciates and wants to support regenerative agriculture practices. (No, they didn’t pay me to say this, I actually am thrilled about what they’re doing.) So while I think that living in the woods and being a hunter gatherer is awesome, intriguing, and commendable, I don’t think that life is black and white. I don’t think this is the only noble path in life. There are better and worse ways to do everything.

 

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15 thoughts on “Fanatics Hate Nuance”

  1. I am so grateful Diane, for all that you share with us. Thank you for this rich resource that is helping me, and others in finding ways to navigate through this difficult period of history that we are living in. I wish sometimes… that I could exist on air only. But I can not. My body needs meat and vegetables and fruits and grains and fats. And the truth is that I enjoy eating and every thing about eating. It would be wonderful if I lived at the edge of a forest on a farm but I live in the center of a concrete jungle. I am grateful every day for the farmers, like you, that provide me with as wholesome food as possible. I am also grateful for your knowledge and the incredible opportunity that I have to learn and grow and widen my knowledge base from you.

  2. And of course then we have to consider that if everyone on the planet did suddenly decide to become hunter gatherers, we would die out pretty quickly, as there are not many places to actually hunt and gather anymore. Even if all of the currently mono-agricultured ground were returned to the wild, with the amount of chemicals in he soil it would take a while to actually be able to harvest something healthy to eat unless we all did some very serious regeneration of the land. A lot of education would need to occur and I can’t see the millionaires who are raping and pillaging the earth giving up their cushy lifestyles to get their hands dirty.

  3. Thanks for taking the time to share this information. I often find that people either don’t care about where their food comes from or are totally over the top in seeking out vegan, wholly natural foods. There is an increases interest and awareness for sustainable, organic foods and I thank you for the research that you do and for sharing it with interested readers.

  4. Hi Diana – this sounds like Daniel Vitalis. I do enjoy listening to some of his podcasts and he definitely can keep up the narrative all on his own – even he said that his way of living wasn’t sustainable for everyone. So why would he hang up on someone who was providing good counterpoint to the discussion?? I don’t know…..maybe he is getting too big for his proverbial loin cloth or maybe he doesn’t want any disagrement? Either way – I think it is unprofessional to hang up on someone.

  5. As a journalist, I’ve encountered the sudden hang up in the middle of an interview that seemed to be going well after what seemed to me to be an innocent question. Condolences.

    The ability to entertain new viewpoints is critical to success in anything. Once you stop listening to new information and just read your own press clippings, learning screeches to a halt.

    It’s sad when people who actually should be working together instead spend more time hammering on each other than on the problems they both share. We all can learn to listen more. Especially your guest.

    I campaign against sugar and for real whole foods. Raising real whole plant and animal foods means treating animals and plants with respect and providing them with an ecological niche where they get to grow and enjoy their lives in full before they’re eaten. So whether you want to eat Paleo, or LCHF, or keto, or vegan, we all share the desire to see nature respected and cherished. My fervent desire is for all of us to band together to accomplish that dream rather than tear the real food movement apart over our differences.

    The enemy is fake food, not each other.

  6. Many people have no ability to function with any level of maturity as soon as they meet what they perceive to be opposition. I find it baffling that grown adults have less control of themselves and ability to consider something they didn’t think of than my nine year old does. She also apologizes when she’s been rude, which I take this gentleman did not. If that’s the way he behaves then I wholeheartedly agree that he is not a good fit for this site.

    I have an issue with anyone who says that the defining moment at which civilization took a nosedive was thousands of years before any of us were born. The world got on pretty well, even with agriculture, for a VERY long time. The issue may be of an extremely narrow definition of the word “agriculture,” in which case a dictionary might help. The more I talk to people the more I find that rather than using actual definitions, many seem to take connotations and turn them into their own private definitions of words, which can make having a good conversation difficult.

    Perhaps the gentleman in question would be interested in the concept or permaculture, which seeks to create a sustainable balance between man and planet. Ever since people came into the world, we’ve changed it. There is no getting around that, even with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, and pretending otherwise does not further discussion, understanding, or respect.

    1. I do think that once agriculture started, and our population became less dependent on natural cycles, things went south. We have evidence of this from many ancient cultures that have destroyed themselves, and today, things are much worse. We are truly on a path to destruction of our species through soil destruction and overpopulation (among many other issues). I do think we would be better off if we had remained hunter gatherers. However, in the context of our current predicament, how do we move forward? Permaculture is one solution, but I don’t feel it’s the only one. To think that one has all the answers is foolish. There is way too much that we don’t know and once we accept this, we can try to move forward.

  7. He seems to be deeply attached to his beliefs and the identity he’s created based on them. Any challenge to those beliefs is a threat to his ego. No one wins when we operate from ego.

  8. I just found about about this blog through snopes (reading what people are saying about coconut oil controversy).

    Who was this guy?

    For optimal mental and emotional health, being ok with controversial opinions is a must. It can be hard, it can seem challenging. But we have to listen. It’s a skill.

  9. Thanks for this blog, I had a feeling it was Daniel Vitalis as I was reading. I have a certain amount of respect for him but he can come across as rather dogmatic with his beliefs.

  10. Daniel was a vegan for 10 years , and I’m sure he still has issues with his nerve system , he might have a permanent problem for life .Sad!

  11. Crazy that he actually hung up on you! I totally know who you’re talking about here and can see how this would’ve felt. I really appreciate his message and the content he creates, but he’s also not relatable to most people because the way he is living is NOT realistic for 99% of people and certainly isn’t going to move the needle forward globally.

    You’re a badass.

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