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Eat for your health, the planet, and your values.

Sustainable Dish Episode 192: To Which We Belong

If you loved Sacred Cow or are just passionate about the sustainability movement, you are going to love the new film To Which We Belong. The documentary features farmers and ranchers from around the globe that are turning from conventional practices and embracing regenerative agriculture.

To Which We Belong is inspired by the Aldo Leopold quote: 

“We abuse the land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.”

On this episode, my co-host, James Connolly interviews Pamela Tanner Boll, director, and Lindsay Richardson, co-director and producer. 

Pamela and Lindsay lovingly talk about the farmers and ranchers that they’ve spent time with and learned from while making the film. Here are a few that were mentioned during the podcast. Be sure to check them out:

Rancho Las Damas – Alejandro Carrillo

GreenWave – Bren Smith

Green Cover Seed – The Berns Brothers

Anderson Ranch

The James Ranch

Listen in as James, Pamela, and Lindsay dig into many facets of the film and regenerative agriculture including:

  • The lost connection with land and the epidemic of loneliness
  • Regenerative farming myths
  • The need for more photosynthesis to get carbon out of the atmosphere
  • How regenerative farming brings joy back to the industry
  • Water vapor as the missing element in climate change conversations
  • How Indigenous people fit into conservation efforts
  • The importance of soil health
  • Reductionist thinking will not save the planet
  • Why Pamela felt like she had to make this film

To Which We Belong is available for pre-order now on Apple TV and will release on Amazon, Apple TV, iTunes, GooglePlay, YouTube, and Vudu on May 10, 2022.

Resources:

To Which We Belong trailer

A Small Good Thing 

Sacred Cow

Sustainable Dish Episode 183: Dan Saladino

Eating to Extinction: The World’s Rarest Foods and Why We Need to Save Them by Dan Saladino 

Dust Bowls of Empire by Hannah Soloman

Nicole Masters, Soil Expert 

The Biggest Little Farm

To Be and To Have

Connect with Pamela & Lindsay:

Website: To Which We Belong

Instagram: @towhichwebelongdoc

Twitter: @towhichwebelong

Facebook: To Which We Belong

Episode Credits:

Thank you to all who’ve made this show possible. Our hosts are Diana Rodgers and James Connelly. Our producer is Emily Soape. And of course, we are grateful for our sponsors, Patreon supporters, and listeners.

Thank you to Dry Farm Wines for their continued support of my work. Their wines are all-natural and low in alcohol which means less of a foggy feeling the next day. Plus, the non-irrigated vineyards force the roots to dig deep in search of water allowing the grapes to absorb extra minerals. Give Dry Farm Wines a try if you’ve given up on wine because of how you feel the next day or if you are simply looking for high-quality, all-natural wine.  They have a great selection of sparkling, whites, rosés, and reds. And when you visit sustainabledish.com/wine you can check out their latest special offer exclusively for listeners of the Sustainable Dish podcast.

Quotes:

“When we lose our connection to place, we lose our connection to people.” – Pamela Tanner Boll

“We have something like 5 billion hectares of grasslands in the world. Those are not lands that are appropriate for cities or for row cropping. What they are appropriate for is their deep carbon stores.” – Pamela Tanner Boll

“Regenerative agriculture is really, in many ways, a return to more Indigenous understandings of how to grow food and work alongside nature.” – Lindsay Richardson

Transcript:

Diana Rodgers, RD  0:01  

Welcome to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. I’m Diana Rodgers, a real food registered dietitian, author, and sustainability advocate. I co-host this podcast with James Connelly who was a producer on my film sacred cow. I also founded the Global Food Justice Alliance and initiative, advocating for the inclusion of animal source foods like meat, dairy, and eggs for a more nutritious, sustainable, and equitable worldwide food system. You can check it out and join me at global food justice.org. Thanks again for listening. And now on to our show.

James Connolly  0:39  

Good early afternoon, I am James Connolly, co-host of the Sustainable Dish podcast. And I was actually really, really happy to find a new film that was coming out. That was sort of tangential to a lot of the work that Diana and I had done. I mean sort of really kind of came out of the woodwork. I came upon your radar. And it was like, what, what is this? There’s another person out of left field, another filmmaker who is talking, what I would consider to be a taboo subject. We had found when we were sort of shopping this around that even approaching this the zeitgeist in the sustainability, environmental world was that we had to, in essence, end all of animal agriculture or diminish it to the point of, you know, the 21st century was supposed to deliver it into obscurity. And so I find this film and I’m like, What is this? Who are these people? And so I wanted to welcome on Pamela Tanner Boll and Lindsay Richardson. They are the director and producers for a film called ‘To Which We Belong,’ which will be coming out soon. To kind of go a little bit into the introduction, I ended up watching another one of your films in preparation for this one, ‘A Small Good Thing,’ which I actually find it so fascinating as a conjunction to this, because it talks about the layers of disconnect that we have with our local farming systems and the number of people who don’t necessarily know how to fit into modernity, who had found reason and purpose in going back to the land and healing themselves from trauma, and then building resilient ecosystems around themselves, that have them interrelating to their communities in a way that they thought was lost. And I found that that was such a good introduction to this to the idea of what happened next in ‘To Which We Belong.’ And so welcome. Thank you so much for coming on. This should be a really interesting discussion.

Pamela Tanner Boll  2:46  

Well, thank you. We’re very happy to be here. And I actually love that you saw ‘A Small Good Thing’ because it is… having filmed that was what got me very, very interested in diving more deeply into what is now known as regenerative agriculture.

James Connolly  3:06  

Yeah, I think that there is a real need for this. Now, I think that we have the degree of consolidation that we have seen in the food industry that was over the past, say, I’m going to say 60 to 70 years that was supposed to usher us into an environment where we no longer had to think about where our food was coming from. You actually talked about this in ‘A Small Good Thing.’ That layer of disconnect, I don’t think we saw the level of reverberation it would have when we… throughout our communities, and you do it really well visually, to get a sense of that there’s a scene in there where you’re talking about like the incandescent lights of the supermarket, and you never make eye contact with anybody you just walk through. And then you see the conversation or the discussions that are happening at these farmer’s markets than interacting with individuals who are like stewards of the land, who are selling meat that they raise themselves, who are talking about the vegetables and where they’re coming from, and the problems within the farming community. So I wonder if you can kind of go a little bit more into that because I think that the social aspect of that is just so missing in this notion of like, we’re going to feed the world through impossible meats or more industrialized agriculture.

Pamela Tanner Boll  4:30  

Well, I’ll begin that. I absolutely agree. We have two threads in our society. One is let’s get more efficient, and we will be able to feed more people. And that’s what has shown up and what we’ve done with the Green Revolution. For example, oh my gosh, we have been able to grow more food around the world. But what we lose is a number of things. One is that connection to our land, and people are meant to be connected with their land and to each other. We have lost that idea there’s this is… all these studies have come out about how lonely people are, particularly in the United States, I think it’s worldwide. We lose this connection to… when we lose our connection to place, we lose our connection to people. And we think this efficiency is great, but we’ve lost so much because of it. Now, let me be clear the regenerative agriculture movement produces as much food as the industrialized method. Now, it might not produce as much the very first year, but within a year, farmers who are growing even the conventional American, wheat, soy, and corn, they are producing pretty much the same yields. So don’t be thinking that we have, oh, we’re sacrificing feeding the world to do cute little connection places. It’s not true. That’s a myth. We knit our communities back together through the actual knowing where our food comes from knowing our farmers, knowing our ranchers, for that matter. And also by shopping more locally, but none of this… a lot of people say, well, that’s fantasy land, we’ve got to feed the world. What I’m trying to say is when you are doing regenerative agriculture, which has all these other great possibilities for reconnecting to your community, reconnecting to your land reconnecting to your people, you can also… the yields don’t go down. That is the myth that’s been perpetrated by the industrialized movement of agriculture. The other thing that happens when you do regenerative farming, I’m going to speak specifically about crop farming right now, is because you can wean yourself off of fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides, your input costs, as a farmer go down. This is a win for the farmers. Right now the industrialized method, they’re hardly breaking even. They the number of the money, they have to continually up their fertilizer use, and pesticides and fertilizers. How do those things? How are they repaired by regenerative agriculture? They’re repaired because the focus is on soil health, which means our film is about bringing carbon down from the sky where there’s way too much of it. We’re in a crisis because of that. Greenhouse gases. We all know this. We’re in despair. People are like, What can I do, you know, live and be merry, there is a solution. The more diverse plants we grow, everywhere, the more photosynthesis happens. Photosynthesis is the process by which carbon is drawn down from the atmosphere brought in through the plants. And the excess, the plants don’t need to grow, go into the soil to feed the microbes in the soil, the carbon sugars, it’s a miracle. The thing is, once you have those microbes, nice and happy because they’re being fed, they add to the fertility of the soil. So carbon actually increases the fertility of the soil. It also creates soil that holds water to a much greater degree than… so in a drying world because the heats up. This is a big deal. As one of our farmers says, in the heartland and Nebraska, for every 1% of carbon you can draw down into the soil the water holding capacity per acre is 25,000 gallons more. So in a world that is getting drier, you can hold more water. It’s just amazing. So the point of that is that the soil is more fertile, you don’t need fertilizers. They don’t run off into the waterways. That problem is alleviated. When you have excess nitrogen, etc potassium, they don’t create those dead zones in the ocean. So no fertilizer is needed. You can wean yourself off depending on what kind of land you have. It’s it can be one year. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead Linds.

Lindsay Richardson  9:55  

And I was just saying I think Pam’s really covered well, sort of the economics of it and the repairing of our broken cycles, whether it’s the water cycle or the nutrient cycle, but I think an important piece we cover in the film too, is sort of this joy in farming aspect and ranching. And I think one of the things that we’ve really seen by visiting the nine farms and ranches that we go to in the film is that you know, we may all know that the average age of the American farmer is now 65. And we need to get people excited about farming again, and I think and ranching. And one of the most incredible things we saw is, you know, to quote, Keith Berns. This just makes it fun again, farming in this way, like the industrialized, commercialized, commodified, agriculture sort of removed us from our relationship with nature. And farming in a regenerative fashion sort of reconnects you with the land but also makes farming fun in the sense that it is kind of, you know, Trey talks about it in terms of it, Trey Hill in Maryland…

Pamela Tanner Boll  11:02  

He has 10,000 acres. These aren’t small plots of land. He farms 10,000 acres on the Chesapeake Bay

Lindsay Richardson  11:11  

Yeah, and he’s constantly experimenting and sort of seeing okay, what makes up cover crops? How am I going to improve the land? Or Alejandro in the Chihuahuan Desert, it’s like, yes, he’s running a larger herd of more nutrient-dense cattle. But he’s also seeing the Golden Eagle return to his land, which is not something you put on, you know, doesn’t it’s not in your budget line. But it’s something that has great meaning and somebody that, you know, he brings his daughters and goes for hikes in the mountains, where he runs his cattle and like, those sort of intangibles, I think was something you were sort of getting at with the maybe anomie or sense of loss that we’re feeling as a society when we’re walking in these fluorescent supermarkets buying food that we have no connection with. There’s something about the regenerative ag movement that connects us with the soil, quite literally, but also the people who are growing the food and the joy they have in growing that food.

Pamela Tanner Boll  12:10  

And also to the natural world, these systems. In the case of Alejandro, he’s in the Chihuahuan Desert. It’s a desert, all the farm, There’s cattle bones all over the place. Lots of people have stopped ranching there. And some people might say that’s a good thing, because cows are bad, right? But here’s the thing, by bunching and herding his cattle across the land, he’s bringing the grasses back. That’s the miracle in our film. So and now he’s increased his cattle herd by three times. And by the way, the grasses are flourishing on his property. Next door, it’s still a desert, dry, desiccated, nothing growing. So the big sort of reveal in the film is that cattle or herbivores need to be on the grasses, but they need to be moving so that they don’t overgraze. And so that’s, that’s the big difference in the regenerative movement in terms of ranching.

James Connolly  13:19  

Yeah, and I think, you know, the way I would sort of describe it to myself Is it there is kind of a butterfly effect that kind of happens with putting animals back on the land and having them do what they’ve done for millennia. One of the things I find sort of interesting in this sort of the context that surrounds the carbon in the atmosphere and greenhouse gases is that one of the things that ends up being sort of left out of that conversation is the amount of water vapor, which is actually the largest greenhouse gas that we have, right? You know, it’s completely excised from the question. So what we have done is we have carved our waterways, our rivers or streams, we got rid of beavers, we got rid of… you know, beavers actually hold like enormous amount of water on the land, because they actually dam it up. And they carve new streams, and they’re almost engineers from nature. What we have done with our Army Corps of Engineers in our agricultural system, is that we functionally moved water so that when we get rain, it actually goes to the rivers so much quicker than it was before because of runoff because of any number of different things, ends up into these large, you know, and then back into the atmosphere. And what happens if you have too much water vapor in the atmosphere? One, you get excessive heating, and two, you get more extremes and storms and you actually talk about that in the film, which you don’t actually see all that much. Nobody talks about this, which I find is really strange because water is like the good right? Where it is, is what matters. You talk about respiration. You talk about the water holding capacity on the land and what that does to ambient temperatures surrounding that area. And so if you’ve ever spent the night in the desert, you really recognize what happens when you don’t have plants on the land. Right? Extreme heat. Yeah. So you know, it’s, I always go back to this and I want to get your thoughts on this because I just did a podcast with Dan Saladino, who’s the BBC radio presenter. And he wrote this wonderful book about the consolidation of the seed industry and how much biodiversity we lost just in seeds alone. That brilliant, brilliant book, but he had a quote in there and I’m wondering if I could read it to you guys, I think you’ll really love it. This is the physicist Albert Lazio Barabasi, an expert in unraveling complex networks both human-made and natural, argues that the driving force of science during the 20th century was a relentless kind of reductionism. convinced by our own cleverness, we believe we’re capable of deciphering nature and all of its complexity and then overriding it. And yes, we have been brilliant at fathoming the constituent parts. But we too often have failed to understand nature as a whole.

Pamela Tanner Boll  16:02  

Oh, yes, that’s what our whole film is about. A film is about embracing not out of some woo-woo Oh, this is wonderful. But actually, because it works. It’s a way that we’re supposed to be living, the complexity and the interconnectedness of all the system systems. You mentioned that water is good. So, therefore, nobody talks about it as being part of the problem. The same thing with carbon. Without carbon, you wouldn’t be here I wouldn’t be here we’re made of carbon trees are made of carbon plants are made of carbon, carbon is in the soil. The problem with carbon is it’s in the wrong place. Because for example, in agriculture, if you plow, which is a no-no in regenerative, instead, you just put your seeds directly into a whole mass of what they call cover crops, all kinds of plants that deliver sugars, carbon sugars to those microbes in a different way. You plant the crops right into that. It’s a mess, you should see Trey Hill’s place. On the… and you’ll see it when you see the movie. It’s just like he says it’s a mess, but it works. The problem is not carbon, it’s the carbon in the atmosphere. The problem is not water, it’s the water cycle is broken. It’s not coming back to Earth in the appropriate way. Why? Because we’ve done away with photosynthesis. Why? Because we’ve concrete, we’ve put a lot of, you know, there’s a lot of concrete around, but also the way we farm is like clear the land, plant your rows. So agriculture can actually repair these problems. And they’re big, but they are being done. And it’s not just agriculture. I started to tell you before we were doing this, that we have something like 5 billion hectares of grasslands in the world. Those are not lands that are appropriate for cities or for row cropping. What they are appropriate for is their deep carbon stores. Okay, just keep that in your mind, taking them down. When you have animals roaming across those grasslands, just like the bison in our country. They roamed in huge, huge herds across the plains. And they left the plains more fertile because of their urine, their dung, but also because they had just enough of a chew off of each piece of grass that the grass developed deeper and deeper roots. That’s why it’s the breadbasket today. But this is what we’re trying to get back to with regenerative cattle raising and grazing.

James Connolly  18:54  

I remember reading a book called the Dust Bowls of Empire. It’s Hannah, Hannah Holleman’s book. And I’ve tried to get in touch with her and she’s hard to get in touch with. But she talks a lot about colonialism. And she talks about the knock-on effects of our policy towards Native Americans. When the government instituted policies to destroy the bison herd and the buffalo herd. The notion was to remove the ability, for many of these tribes to feed themselves. And then so by the time that that is in full swing, you’re in the 1880s and 1890s. But 50 years on, what you get is a dust bowl. So you have these… 

Pamela Tanner Boll 19:35

Exactly. Yeah 

James Connolly 19:36

And so because we think of these things in very small tidbits, years and months and everything like that, we don’t recognize the level of environmental destruction a lot of our policies have. We always sort of pass it on to the next generation, the next generation. And you look at these photos of the Dust Bowl, like literally topsoil, five houses high just blown up, blown. I’ve just gone, absolutely gone. And I think that is what part of the reason why Alejandro’s work is so, so visually appealing because he’s showing you when we film down there, he showed us, he had this gorge, this, this water made gorge, that was essentially just runoff from the rains that would come. So the water couldn’t be held on the land anymore. And he had this fence that was going across in this course that was like 60 feet across, and like 60 feet deep, just gone, like the land was gone. But you had this fence that is, in essence, kind of went across it. And he’s like, this is what happens when you don’t have ruminant animals on the landscape. And when you don’t have these ecosystems that are functioning as they probably can. Desertification is a process. And it is manmade, in so many different ways. You know, when we were looking at the archaeological record, even of the Sahara, what we find is that a lot of that land was desertified. And we had civilizations living on that… fertile civilizations that had animals, and then just gone. And so it now seems semi normative, but we’re like we’re starting to recognize like, so you know, we got to figure out stuff.

Pamela Tanner Boll  21:13  

That’s what the regenerative ranchers are doing. And the regenerative farmers, they’re bringing plants back to the land, keeping the ground covered year-round, keeping the roots in the ground, year-round. Even if you’re growing a crop, in between those crops, you’re growing, you know, a variety of carbon soaking plants that put that carbon into the ground, it creates a more stable soil, as well as more water holding capacity as well as more fertility and why do you not need pesticides and herbicides anymore? Well, because guess what, those plants are healthier. They’re getting the nutrients they need from the soil, which is what it’s supposed to do. We’re adding stuff, which is reductive and it’s also expensive. And by the way, the farmers who were using those old methods, which there are many still, they have are beginning to recognize in their communities that there are some illnesses that they get because they’re around the pesticides, the herbicides, and, you know, we all know about the bees disappearing. But all of this is fixed by restoring the fertility of the soil through I call it photosynthesis on steroids, more plants. We have no need for bare ground, anywhere to plant, you know, crops, we do have need for cattle or other herbivores to be roaming those grasslands in an appropriate way. Not just letting them out at, you know, dawn and coming back and getting them four months later. Because they’ll go wherever they want to get whatever they want. You do need to manage them a little bit. So yeah, go ahead. It’s a miracle. And so in some ways, our way of thinking is reductive. And it’s also a lot of thinking for humans. And we’ve done well with it in some regards, is step one, step two, step three, step four, I forget what that’s called. But, um, but the other way of thinking is like a web, right? This is connected to that. But that means if you change that, that means it changes five more things. This is more complex, holistic thinking. And the point is that when we work with nature, and sort of get out of the picture, we see that that’s how the natural world works in a much more less reductionistic, much more holistic and complex way. And then the fact is, we have all these great side effects. And in most of reductive thinking, if you think about factory farming, okay, we’re producing more beef or whatever, but we’re creating terrible consequences for both the health of the land, the health of the animal, and the health of humans, terrible things. So it sounds like a good idea, but it has all these unintended, very bad consequences, right? Factory farming CAFOs but when you work with nature, those grasses come back and then the birds start to come by. And you know, we are so desperate to regain those beautiful creatures that we’re losing as a world. Oh, Save the Whales save the pandas, save all the animals right? This is how you save animals by creating habitat for them not by, you know, putting them into little zoo areas or parks and setting them aside from the actual land. And you certainly don’t want to be feeding cattle who are ruminants, that means they digest their grass three times, you don’t want to be feeding them grain. It’s actually not good for them, it makes them sick. So if we’re not feeding all the cattle in our country and around the world grain, guess what a side effect of that is that we’re not going into timberlands and rainforests to create more places to grow grain and soy. Okay. And we can talk about that when we talk about Impossible Burger.

James Connolly  25:55  

I find it particularly hard to… because the collective that we’ve sort of built over the time of filming Sacred Cow are very passionate people, environmentalist people who care a lot about what is happening to the world. They’re parents, they’re fathers, they’re mothers. And the hard part that I’ve had is that the current Zeitgeist is that the total removal of animal agriculture, maybe will allow for Indigenous cultures to hold on to pastoralists and sheep herding and all of this stuff that’s associated with that. But I find it particularly hard to even just embrace some of the narrative around this because it almost becomes like, you are such an outsider now. But Sacred Cow was very difficult to get people to understand that, like we had a legitimate argument, and that we actually afford the confined animal feeding operations we hate. We hated the consolidation of every monoculture that is created, whether it’s animal or plant, we recognize all of the knock-on effects of all of that. And so to advocate for more efficiently managed systems, all the while, we have had a war on farmers for the past 50 or 60 years. You mentioned it, right. The percentage of Americans involved in agriculture now is it’s negligible. It’s nothing. Absolutely nothing percent. Yeah.

Pamela Tanner Boll  27:24  

1-2%. And that’s a scary thing right there. But Lindsay, you were gonna say something?

Lindsay Richardson  27:28  

Oh, I was just gonna say that like sometimes as a filmmaker, you have these moments where you know, you’ve been thinking about these ideas. And then you just get that first shot. And you’re like, Oh, I get like… you research something. And it just was reminding me of the moment of going out and shooting the first day at Enonkishu which is where we were shooting with the Maasai in Kenya. And, you know, their story is they consolidated the herd and saw a change from 20% grass cover to over 75% grass cover in a matter of a few years. So the timeline there is incredible. 

Pamela Tanner Boll  28:10  

It was the first year. Yeah.

Lindsay Richardson  28:13  

Yeah. But the first shot, we’re driving out and we come across Pissarro, who is a cheetah that is known to the guides because she lives in the area and she had six cubs. And so we’re sitting up on this bluff, overlooking, and then the herd, the major herd comes, you know, passing in the, so the cheetahs are in the foreground, cattle are in the back. And it’s just this obvious example of how there was this thought that we should preserve the wildlife and have the cattle separately, but actually, it’s the cattle’s relationship with the grass or the wildebeest before you know, the migration of the wildebeests. We need the diversity and all of these things. And these things can coexist. They have the same experience where it was just the first year they had the small grass-eating animals come back. And then within a few years, the predators were back. And in the whole Mara Serengeti ecosystem, I think there’s something like 61 cheetahs. So the fact that this one mother and they only get counted once they’re a year old, that’s why her six cubs. Usually, cheetahs can’t have… can’t keep alive. Maybe they have more than one or two cubs, but they can’t they don’t have you know, the ability to have enough food for them. And so the fact that this mom was making a serious dent you know, that’s why they named her sorrow for the Savior. She was alone like able to feed her six cubs. And I just saw recently on their Instagram, she had another two cubs, and just so that she is very emblematic of how healthy these grasslands and how quickly we can go from sort of sticking our fingers in the wrong way. And trying to control a situation in a way that actually degrades land to working with nature as Alejandro says, and really turning things around and quite quickly. And it was just amazing to see. I mean, it was amazing to see a cheetah and six cubs too. As a filmmaker, I was like, Wow, this will always be yeah…

James Connolly  30:31  

Yeah, I don’t know, if you’re following a lot of the… I have a big bone to pick with the conservation movement, the global conservation movement, and how they’re excising a lot of Maasai from their ancestral lands in the name of conservation.

Pamela Tanner Boll  30:47  

I mean, and yet there are conservation folks, some very big names, who are not doing that, who have completely turned on a dime, and recognize the value of the work, the nature services, if you will, that Indigenous people do, and they are completely on board with this. And actually, this is old thinking, I’m not sure the conservation movement is still doing this. It used to…

James Connolly  31:18  

I just read a report that just came out specifically on that.

Pamela Tanner Boll  31:22  

Which one?

James Connolly  31:25  

Survival International, it’s been sort of focusing on this, these are larger, these are the sort of multinationals that have partnered with like Coca Cola, this is the World Wildlife Fund. We’ve done a lot of work into the history of these groups who, you know, I mean, were literally funded by princes, English and Dutch princes. And were responsible for excising Indigenous people in India to save the Tigers. And…

Pamela Tanner Boll  31:54  

Got it. Well, again, not holistic thinking. But I’m close to a couple of nature organizations who are very, very, very much completely turned around. And they’re getting quite a bit of funding to do this sort of holistic, regenerative working with nature, in working with nature, to bring back wildlife. Working, you know, so I don’t think the picture is as grim. Sometimes we only see the bad news because it leaves an impression on us. Sorry, but mostly, new services don’t tell you about the cheetah with six cubs. I mean, I’ve seen some news services go into Oh, isn’t that cute, but they act like it’s a little tiny thing that doesn’t matter instead of being emblematic of a much more hopeful story. And, you know, I have to be an optimist, and I’m a very hopeful person.

Diana Rodgers, RD  32:55  

I wanted to thank Dry Farm Wines for their continued support of my work. All of their wines are all-natural and low in alcohol, which means less of a foggy feeling the next day, their wines are non irrigated. So the roots have to dig deep in search of water, which means the grapes absorb extra minerals. That’s something missing from more modern vineyards. So if you’re someone who has given up on wine because of how it makes you feel the next day, but you’d still like to enjoy it on occasion, give Dry Farm Wines a try. They have a great variety of sparkling, whites, roses, and reds. And when you visit sustainabledish.com/wine, you can check out their latest special offer exclusively for listeners of the Sustainable Dish podcast, that’s sustainabledish.com/wine to check out Dry Farm Wines.

James Connolly  33:45  

So I wonder if we could pivot a little bit towards the kelp farming because actually, like I found that… I mean, I had been reading about it just in terms of methane reduction in rumen animals and stuff like that. But I and obviously sort of thought about it just in terms of the loss of fish stocks and what these fishermen, you know, had to sort of pivot towards but I wonder if you could tell that story because I think it’s a really integral part of understanding this sort of complexity of this ecosystem. And the argument in the film,

Pamela Tanner Boll  34:18  

Lindsay can tell that story. Lindsay told me about Brent Smith, probably at this point, seven years ago, Linds, right?

Lindsay Richardson  34:28  

Yeah, if not more, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just love Bren. I love Bren as a character like he’s just such a how he came to the work that he does he, he basically was a commercial fisherman who loves the sea, grew up in Canada, and was just sort of became aware of how these practices were destroying the planet and, you know…

Pamela Tanner Boll  34:54  

Losing jobs too.

Lindsay Richardson  34:56  

Yeah, cod stocks failed, and then he became part of the commercial farming of fish and saw how destructive that was, how unhealthy it was for the animals, what they were producing was really unhealthy. And that it was destroying the oceans. It was just sort of mimicking all of the issues of commercial agriculture on land and bringing them out to the sea. And being the brilliant guy that he is. He was like, well, we can do something better than this, and came up with this vertical ocean farm, which the first time I read about it, I was like this is… I love the ocean. And I just thought it was brilliant because it’s basically creating the diversity of crops you would see on a regenerative farm, but in the ocean by using vertical space of creating lines that then you grow different crops throughout the year, but also at different parts of the water column. Kelp, scallops, mussels, clams, I’m forgetting one…

Pamela Tanner Boll 35:54

Oysters

James Connolly 35:55

Oysters. My favorite. 

Lindsay Richardson 35:56

Oysters, yes, of course, oysters, I love oysters. I knew I was forgetting one. And does it in a way that basically creates a living for the person growing in this way. But also sequesters… kelp is like if you talk about grasses being amazing and sequestering carbon kelp is like the superhero of sequestration. And then all of these bivalves filter the ocean and clean the ocean while creating food. And then the whole lattice of how these things are grown creates habitat that we’ve lost in the destruction of reefs. So, for me, I was just like, I love everything about this. And he just actually won, I’m forgetting the name of the prize, but it’s the largest environmental prize, it’s a $2 million prize to forward his work. So I’m just thrilled for him and living in Rhode Island, myself, his farm is the closest one we feature in the film to where I live. And I just think there’s huge opportunity, as he says in the film for the water’s edge is kind of a new frontier. And we can either worry about sea-level rise, or we can do something about changing things that are causing that and grow healthy, nutrient-dense food. And it’s also one of these things where it is a challenge to figure out how are we going to create kelp. That is things people in the US want to eat or use it in interesting ways to replace plastics. I just think there’s so much creativity around the work he’s doing that I’m really drawn to it.

Pamela Tanner Boll  37:35  

He’s also had people from all over the world beg him to come and set up the kelp and bivalve farms in their places. There’s a huge desire because it works. And if you can, I think this is true, Lindsay, please correct me if I’m wrong. But if you can begin to farm in the ocean in this way, not salmon farming per se, but without the antibiotics and pesticides and feeding them food, you can actually draw down much more carbon than we’re doing currently. But in a way that actually also reduces the carbon sequestration load that is already on the ocean. You see what I’m saying? Right now one of the reasons we’re not already in a terrible, terrible, terrible state, is our oceans have soaked in some a huge number of 30% of the carbon in the atmosphere goes into our oceans, that means it’s warming the oceans and creating a more acidic environment, which is dangerous for everything living in the oceans. This method of using more and planting more and more seaweed, for example, particularly, is a way to reverse this. To reverse the acidification of the oceans. It also can sequester that carbon. And then they cut it and they mix it with the cattle feed and you get rid of any methane issues which I could go on about methane but whatever. We’re way too focused on that.

Lindsay Richardson  39:25  

I just wanted to add another. I mean, there’s so many things I love about GreenWave’s work and it’s not just Bren, like Bren has an incredible team that he works with at GreenWave. And the work they’re doing in Alaska with Indigenous communities there and is pretty awesome. And I’m sad because of COVID we weren’t able to fly out there and that would have been very meaningful to me to go get to see that work, but he is doing tons to try to not recreate the sort of extractive hierarchy that happened with the industrialization of agriculture, and that, teaching Indigenous populations, his sort of system of vertical ocean farming, but making sure that the seedbanks were people that those are communally owned that it’s creating a much flatter structure, and he doesn’t want farming, any kind of farming to have to be this huge barrier to entry where you need tons of money in the bank to even be…

Pamela Tanner Boll  40:27  

Millions of dollars to buy a piece of land.

Lindsay Richardson  40:29  

Yeah. So I don’t know, I just… I think he’s a very amazing thinker and sort of looking at a lot of interconnected things, you know, inequality and climate, climate crisis and all these things that are interconnected and finding solutions in creative ways, so.

James Connolly  40:47  

Yeah, it’s sort of interesting when I think when you talk about and I don’t want to get on that sort of methane train for too long, man, it’s,

Pamela Tanner Boll  40:56  

It big though. People look at it and say oh, let’s kill all the cows.

James Connolly  41:00  

Right. So one of the things I actually find sort of interesting about it is that, in essence, it’s a sort of bacteria that sort of hijacked the ruminants’ digestive system. It’s not inherent to ruminants, that they produce methane. There are or methanotrophs that kind of exist along that compost digestion, that kind of happens within there. And so a reduction in that is actually shown to produce more milk. So if you actually bring down the level of methanotrophs that exist in that stomach, you’ll produce more milk and more nutrition for the cattle itself.

Pamela Tanner Boll  41:36  

It’s a medical problem. It’s sort of a medical problem. Yeah. Yeah. May I also add to that, that it’s a medical problem for cattle that kind of go away when they’re only on grasses instead of on grains and the things that they’re fed in feedlots. It’s much less of an issue when they’re eating what they’re supposed to be eating? I heard this, but our soil scientist, Nicole… All right, Lindsay help me out. Nicole…

Lindsay Richardson 42:05

Nicole Masters. Nicole Masters, sorry. 

Pamela Tanner Boll 42:09

But Nicole is brilliant on this topic. Now, she’s got her own podcasts and whatnot about it. So anyway,

James Connolly  42:18  

Yeah, that’d be interesting to listen to because I know I mean, we worked with a number of scientists, and one of the big pushbacks against the regenerative agriculture movement is land right? Do we have enough land to… the cattle will be on the pasture for longer to reach weight for slaughter weight…

Pamela Tanner Boll 42:37

5 billion hectares of grassland

James Connolly 42:39

Yeah. I’m just, I’m just telling you what they say.

Pamela Tanner Boll  42:45  

I know. I’m hearing you but I gotta insert that number, because I gotta tell you, that’s a lot of land that is not being currently used for cattle.

James Connolly  42:54  

Yeah. And, you know, I mean, so when they talk about it, they say that this is more methane that will be produced and all that stuff. So when I dive into a lot of it, obviously, there’s controversy, we’re measuring methane on a level that we haven’t done. And pretty much ever right now we have, we have tools and techniques and science and all this stuff going out into the world and measuring methane. We’re looking at ruminant animals, but we’re also looking at methane leaks from permafrost. We’re also looking at methane leaks from the oil and gas industry, which is mostly never been really measured or has only been measured by these companies themselves. And they’re not known for veracity or telling the truth about anything.

Pamela Tanner Boll  43:37  

Keep a lawsuit quiet. Yeah,

James Connolly  43:39  

Yeah. So you know, I mean, I don’t know how much you’re following this on a daily basis, like Vox, which is a news media agency is really pushing hard for that. I think almost everybody on staff is some sort of ethical vegan, at least I know, the editor in chief of Vox is. There was another small documentary that came out of the New York Times. Recently, it was like a short documentary of the series and many kind of talking about the reduction in meat, because of methane because of its environmental damage. Because, you know, the Amazon, any number of different things in your…

Pamela Tanner Boll  44:17  

I have to interject here, though. The reason that I’m interjecting, I know I’m kind of excited. 

James Connolly  44:26  

No. Nobody wants to hear me.

Pamela Tanner Boll  44:28  

The methane issue is… you’re right. We’re looking at sources of methane and counting them that we’ve never done through the permafrost and I think we’re going to find that so bigger deal, but the main problem for cattle is not if they’re grazed appropriately on grasses. It is because they’re in CAFOs. We’re feeding them soybeans and corn. That’s the rainforest reduction to plant more soybeans and corn. So get them back onto grasses, get, you know, grow less cattle for feed, I mean less corn and soybeans for feed. So people get these things conflated. We don’t like CAFO cows. They are not right for human consumption. Their CLA levels. That is a nutrition that we desperately need is almost… it’s not very high. Whereas if they’re fed appropriately on the food they were meant to eat, it goes way up. And I am not advocating that we eat steak every day. Regardless of all this, we don’t want to eat steak every day. But let me say this about people who are vegan, I respect their choices. Absolutely. In fact, there’s somebody right on this podcast, who’s you know, are you vegan, Lindsay?

Lindsay Richardson  46:07  

No. Well, pescetarian.

Pamela Tanner Boll  46:10  

Alright. Pescetarian. But the point is, we go down this road. And we have things like fake chicken made from soybeans and fake meat made from, you know, whatever, soybeans and corn. Guess what that does? That destroys the rainforests. Growing more feed that’s made into fake, I’m gonna call it fake food. All right. It’s, this is not good for the planet, we have the grasslands. So much of the grasslands cannot be used for anything but grazing. If they’re not grazed, they die. When they die, that land becomes desertified. They are important, whether you have a piece of meat every day, or you have a piece every week, I would say once a week is great. So it’s a wrongheaded argument that people are making. I saw a big article in The New York Times all about this, how factory chicken are so bad, let’s stop this yada, yada yada. I’m like, Well, this sounds interesting. But what their solution was to make chicken out of soybeans. You’re mixing, you’re using more land. And if you are using that land for a mono-crop, which is what soybeans are, that’s what you get paid to make right, to grow. You’re depleting the fertility of the soil almost overnight, especially if you’re in an Amazon region where the soil is not very deep. Okay? This is not being discussed in these articles. So excuse me, it’s again reductionist thinking in some way, you’re not looking at the whole picture. That’s my passionate speech about this. We’re trying to work with nature. Nature needs animals. We are omnivores by nature. Yes, we should be eating lots of plants. But I’m, I beg your pardon. Soybeans made into various other meat-like foods. I cannot it there’s been studies that have shown that it’s worse for the planet by reputable people. I can’t cite the studies but dig into it a little bit. It’s not the answer. It’s far from it. But I’ve done a lot of research. I mean, to make this film I’ve probably spent five years reading.

James Connolly  48:51  

I mean, it’s, to me, it’s a journey of a lifetime. Yeah, I think the degree to which agriculture over the past 10,000 years is functionally like, I mean, it determines civilization that determines, you know, every single thing that we have around us. Misinformation out there, there’s so much to kind of like, in you’re digging through this on a daily basis, because there’s just so much misinformation, and cognitive bias and, and people who are lazy journalists and don’t want to dig into all of this. Absolutely. Yeah. So I’m so happy that you’re digging into a lot of the complexity of this argument, like you focused an entire film around the specifics of environmental benefits of having animals, which is so huge, you know.

Pamela Tanner Boll  49:41  

So and also that, I do feel that I will tell you that I didn’t want to make another film. They’re hard, they’re long, they’re expensive. Lindsay’ll tell ya, I actually called her after our first trip down to Alejandro’s. We were all staying at his house, there just one bathroom. I literally couldn’t sleep all night long. I was like wandering his house. It was hilarious. I love Alejandro, by the way. Love him, love him, love him. I love what he’s doing. And what I’m like, I just can’t, I can’t do this. It’s just, and then I have to say, I had to do it. Because there is a way forward that people do not know about. We hear all this terrible news, all of this misinformation, all the things that you’re just you’re talking about. And yet, there’s a very quiet army of people who are making a huge difference. And if we can shine a light on those practices, in a way that is… shows the complexity, but also the joy. Getting back all the things we began to talk about the sense of community that’s been fractured. People in Nebraska,  our Burns Brothers, they’re, their kids are back on the farm. They made a seed cover business for that. But guess what they have, they’re selling those cover crop seeds in every state in the US and they’ve only been in business nine years. There is a desire, there’s a need. This is happening. We don’t see it on Fox News and even Vox for that matter. Don’t see it. So gall darn it. I guess I have to make this film. No, we need this news. I have three sons who are in their 30s are like, Why are you doing this? Mom, it’s game over? Do you know how powerful that is to hear from your own kids? That is not okay. So, I make films because it is not okay to not speak up. Okay, despite the cost, despite the aggravation. And despite all of that. I mean, by the way, making films is also fun but there’s a lot of things, but it is out of that deep need to say no, that’s not true. And guess what? They continue to say that and by the way, my kids are very well educated. They read everything. Right. This is where they come to? That’s not okay.

Lindsay Richardson  52:38  

Well… Yeah, some part of the sort of apathy that can be built into like, okay, yeah, my actions can’t save the rainforest. I think that we need to one of the things we tried to get out in this film and are continuing to try to get out with these steps to connect that we’re doing on our social media is sort of… it doesn’t have to be all or nothing right, we can make actions in our daily practice that do have impacts. Sure, we probably can’t affect the long-chain food chains that exist with the food on the shelves in our supermarket. But if we shift some of our spending to buying from local producers where we know okay, this farmer cares about soil health and is growing these vegetables in a regenerative manner. I know giving my dollars to that person is going to have a better impact on the planet than buying whatever vegetable the supermarket is serving me probably because it was the cheapest one they could find and was flown in from some other country and may have very limited nutrient density. Or you know if I… meat there’s two grass-fed grass-finished farms or ranches right on my I like my island and the next island over. And it’s like, making those choices. I feel like it does allow us to like make small steps even though it’s not going to necessarily solve all the world’s problems. Yeah. I think that’s one thing that your sons, I hope that some from seeing this film. Sure. We are on a crash course for disaster. But there are things that we can do. And we do have time like as we’re all talking about on the podcast, like the way we practice agriculture matters a lot. The opinion piece that was in the New York Times over the weekend about agriculture, I don’t know I just as Pam said, we’d like to try to remain somewhat optimistic.

Pamela Tanner Boll  54:39  

Well, my sons did see the film and they’re like, oh my god, this is a game-changer. They had no idea you know, I don’t know if you know Jeff Orlowski who’s done Chasing Ice and coral, whatever, or something about chasing coral. Anyway, he’s he did the social network.

Lindsay Richardson  55:02  

Social Dilemma, I think

Pamela Tanner Boll  55:03  

Social Dilemma.

James Connolly  55:05  

Oh yeah. Brilliant film

Pamela Tanner Boll  55:07  

Brilliant, brilliant guy. He lives Boulder, I live in Boulder. And he saw the film and he had been there, he was all about going to Mars, all about getting… I am seriously, we’re done on the planet, it’s all. And somebody gave him the film, or I guess he saw it at a film festival in Boulder. He said to everyone, it is an absolute game-changer. I had no idea. This is a very big deal. This regenerative not my film, not our films, or our film is important. But it’s this idea is a bigger deal than you could ever really imagine. Because it’s, we regreen the earth through using nature’s ways. Done, in a nutshell, that’s what it is. And it’s being done. We’re showing people who were doing it not on one plot here, a half an acre there, the Smallest Beautiful Little Farm, awesome film loved it. It gives you the idea that… those films give you the idea that this is only possible on elite little tiny farms where people have lots of time to experiment. Our people are in the Midwest, they’re out on the plains in Kenya, they’ve been doing these practices for 1000s of years. And now they’re back to doing them. And the other thing is, this is not an elite concept. This is done everywhere. For the reason that people… it works. They make money. So I want to get away in this film with the idea that it’s only possible if you’re super educated and have buying power up the kazoo. You see what I’m saying? That’s why we feature people from Montana who are… they’ve been on the farm the ranch for three, four generations, same in Nebraska. Same on the Anderson ranch. Also in Montana, Paradise Valley, the James Ranch, all five adult children came back because of the lifestyle, and guess what they’re all having… they’re all making money to support themselves. But some people dismiss this as some sort of elite idea. Well, I’d rather go to Costco. Well, so would I if that was all I cared about. Costco will be taking up these grass-fed beef things very soon. Just it’s… just look at what happened with you probably are way too young for this. But in the 70s organic food was like a hippie thing. Right? Very elite. And now you get organic at Walgreens and Walmart. I meant Walmart. Costco, and I had my arguments with that. But they’re available because people want them to get it. They want healthier food. So I’m much more hopeful because I’ve seen what’s happened.

James Connolly  58:13  

Great. Yeah, I think one of one of the things that we found with making our film was a number of young people who reached out who said, you know that they didn’t want to go to college, they didn’t want to get a master’s degree. They were unsatisfied with school, and they were looking for, you know, just a new way to commune with the land and build things and make stuff. You know, I think that there is a real drive and determination to get away from this idea that like city life is the way to go. You know, it’s ridiculous.

Pamela Tanner Boll  58:49  

Talk to Linds about that.

Lindsay Richardson  58:52  

Yeah, I grew up in Manhattan, then live most of the beginning of my adult life in Brooklyn, and now live on a nine-mile Island in Rhode Island. Population of 5000. So I have made a pretty big shift,

Pamela Tanner Boll  59:07  

And a happy shift.

Lindsay Richardson  59:09  

Oh yeah.

James Connolly  59:10  

I actually genuinely thought with the release of our film, and hopefully with the release of yours that the first generation of people who walked in the supermarket and saw bare shelves would really start to say, all right, where is my food coming from? And really start to investigate that. And I think that is happening.

Pamela Tanner Boll  59:28  

It is happening, but it’s slower than you want. Yeah, there’s some statistic I think it’s out of the Rocky Mountain Institute, which is a fabulous organization that does a lot of research in all this stuff. That in order to change something in society or in technology or anything. There’s a… you have to get to a certain percentage of users, I forget what it is. But it’s like 20% and it takes forever to get there. Like I think they’re talking about solar use as an example, and it took 20 years for people to get on board and yada, yada. And then once it got to that magic number it goes poof.

Lindsay Richardson  1:00:08  

Yeah. You’re talking about the tipping point.

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:00:10  

The tipping point. Yeah. But this is what we in this space have to be thinking about, we can’t lose hope. We are the forerunners, the explorers who are out there in the beginning.

Lindsay Richardson  1:00:26  

Yeah. And I think one of the things that was the most, it’s something I want to dig into, hopefully, in a new project is sort of how regenerative agriculture is really, in many ways a return to some more like Indigenous understandings of how to grow food and work alongside nature. And just I think this is long overdue, sort of honoring that knowledge and finding, oh, I think there’s probably a lot to be learned on how to undo all the harm and damage we’ve done by sort of re-engaging some of that knowledge.

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:01:07  

Oh, absolutely. It’s, you know, big white culture going all over the world and colonizing is… we weren’t really paying any attention to how well some of those systems were functioning. Only now are we beginning to see that there were towns in South America the…I think it was Aztec, I don’t think it was Mayan, but it could have been Mayan, I’m gonna get that wrong. So just don’t quote me on it. That were 300,000 people fully with, you know, Road Runners going 300 miles to deliver messages back and forth. We think Greek civilization is the be-all and end-all this was at the same time. We’re just now discovering that. So our understanding of some of the cultures that have flourished in former times is very, very minimal. We’re just beginning to see some of these very, very rich civilizations. And even if they didn’t have big cities, they had rich civilizations. I mean, some of our best wisdom comes from Indigenous cultures, you know, think that we are not outside of nature, we’re part of it. We are part of it, we make these distinctions, but we’re natural. So yeah, I agree with you, Lindsay. Absolutely.

James Connolly  1:02:33  

So tell me about the quote, the name, the title of the film, because I think that’s actually a wonderful quote.

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:02:40  

It comes from Aldo Leopold, who’s one of our most brilliant conservationists and holistic thinkers from the last century. And it’s Lindsay’s, quote, she wanted to change the title from Land, Water, Sky, which is my idea, to this quote, so tell us about that Linds.

Lindsay Richardson  1:03:04  

Oh, I just, I felt like land, water, sky didn’t have us in it. It didn’t have people in it. And I think this story is really about people who have learned to reconnect with nature. And so the quote is, I think we abused land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us, when we see land as a commodity to which we belong, we begin to use it with love and respect. And I think, for me, I was looking for something, as you say, like, you were talking about this earlier in the podcast, connecting with land, finding a sense of belonging in that place. And then also, out of that comes this joy that we see in the film. Yeah, it’s harder to abuse something that you’re connected to, you know,

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:03:49  

I think in the second part of the quote, he doesn’t use commodity used another word, but the point… 

Lindsay Richardson  1:03:54  

Sorry, sorry as a community did I say? So when we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect. Always terrible at remembering things off the cuff. Yeah, yeah, it’s one of these things where, you know, titles are very tough. And I actually was… I didn’t feel right about the land, water, and sky and then I went on this I don’t know how long a couple days I was just deep in all the books. And the way that To Which We Belong actually came out was both this Aldo Leopold quote, but there was also Wendell Berry quote that had the same phrasing in it and there was something and I think, you know, it also came out of Pam and I both love this film, To Be and To Have so there’s not two films that have a little bit of a… they make you think or want to like figure out oh, what’s that about, rather than the more literal like…

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:04:59  

Land, water, and sky.

James Connolly  1:05:03  

So how do people reach out to you? Websites, social media? I want to state, because we actually said this before that the film will probably come out on two major viewing platforms in April. So this will probably come out a couple of weeks beforehand. But I want people to sign up for your newsletter, and find you in any way possible.

Lindsay Richardson  1:05:24  

So our website is to which we belong.com. And on the website, you can sign up for our newsletter, but also we have Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, so whatever your preferences, but we love staying in touch, we send a newsletter out once a month.

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:05:41  

But the platforms that we will be on for sure, in April, right prior to Earth Day. As it turns out, those will be… you can pre-buy the film because they’ll not be on… They’ll be on iTunes and Apple TV, for sure. And maybe another of the larger platforms, which I’m not going to name because we’re not quite sure if we’re there yet. But we’re excited. The thing is they are going to be pay-per-view. So you can pre-buy them. And guess what? The more people who go on those sites, iTunes, Apple, and then the third to be named place to pre-buy. They get higher and higher up in the whatever. What is that called Linds?

James Connolly 1:06:28

The cue

Lindsay Richardson  1:06:30  

They’ll feed it to other people, they’ll display it more readily. So if you want this film to be seen by more people, pre-buying it is a great way to help us out as filmmakers. Yeah. 

James Connolly  1:06:42  

Well, thank you guys so much for your time. This is wonderful. I love your passion and your optimism. Maybe pass it off for me a little bit.

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:06:52  

Well, it’s been wonderful. It’s been a wonderful podcast with you. Really enjoyed it.

James Connolly  1:06:58  

Thank you really, the film is wonderful. And I think it’s a really wonderful addition to all of the stuff that’s happening right now. And I think I’m really going to try to promote it as much as possible. Give ‘em that aha moment.

Pamela Tanner Boll  1:07:13  

We do have the trailer which is available to post. Please do in fact, you can tell your viewers of this that if they go to the website, they can look at the trailer and obviously send the trailer on to whoever they want. 

James Connolly  1:07:28  

Well, thank you, guys.

Diana Rodgers, RD  1:07:31  

Thank you so much for tuning in to the Sustainable Dish podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a review on iTunes and check out my website at sustainable dish.com where you can sign up for my newsletter, catch up on the latest blog post and check out my courses and favorite products. See you next time and thanks again for listening.

 

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