Become a Sustainavore!

Eat for your health, the planet, and your values.

Become a Sustainavore!

Eat for your health, the planet, and your values.

Sustainable Dish Episode 195: Human Nature Hunting

During the pandemic, people have gained awareness of where their food comes from and the fragility of global food supply chains. This newfound awareness has led to an uptick in hunting interest as an effort to combat uncertainty and reduce reliance on multibillion-dollar companies for basic needs.

Maybe you found yourself wondering what steps to take to hunt for your own meet but didn’t grow up in a hunting family so there wasn’t a dad, uncle, or grandfather to ask (it’s always men, isn’t it?). I know I’ve found myself in the same situation. I think this is especially true for women because hunting is seen as more of a “man’s thing” and many hunting venues may as well have “No Girls Allowed” posted on the door. 

This is where Bruce McGlenn comes in. Bruce is the owner of Human Nature Hunting, an organization that teaches people hunting and other survival skills in a safe, approachable, and low-pressure way. Bruce grew up hunting and wanted to find a way to share the profound experiences that have changed his life with other people. 

Bruce is joined on this podcast episode by his partner, Sarah Long. Sarah is a midwife and is an avid outdoorswoman. When she and Bruce met over three years ago, Sarah had been a vegetarian for 12 years. As a midwife, she is intimately connected to the circle of life and giving birth. Over time and through getting to know Bruce and his attitude toward hunting, she opened her mind to the idea of hunting as “giving death.” Her journey, as she explains during this episode, has been life-changing and is continuing to unfold. 

Human Nature Hunting offers courses throughout the year so check out their website if you are interested in learning more. I will also be collaborating with them soon (summer 2023) to get together an all-women’s hunt. Be sure to contact me or Human Nature Hunting if this is something you would like to participate in.

In the meantime, listen in to this episode to find out:

  • Bruce’s background
  • Types of courses offered at Human Nature Hunting
  • Sarah’s story and her fears around acceptance now that she eats meet
  • Hunter stereotypes
  • Things people learn during a Human Nature Hunting course
  • The mind-shift change that can happen with hunting

Resources:

Trophy – documentary on big game hunting

Washington Outdoor Women

Sustainable Dish Episode 165: Danielle Prewett

Connect with Bruce & Sarah:

Website: Human Nature Hunting

Instagram: @humannaturehunting

Facebook: Human Nature Hunting School

Substack: Human Nature Hunting

Episode Credits:

Thank you to all who’ve made this show possible. Our hosts are Diana Rodgers and James Connelly. Our producer is Emily Soape. And of course, we are grateful for our sponsors, Patreon supporters, and listeners.

This episode is sponsored by Levels, a continuous glucose monitor that gives you individualized insight into your metabolism. This is a tool I personally use and recommend to people I work with. It’s helped me figure out what foods spike my blood sugar and which ones keep me level. I can also see how certain tricks like walks after a meal affect my body. Right now Levels has a waiting list of over 150,000 but they are allowing my listeners to skip the line if you go to sustainabledish.com/levels and sign up. Try it out to see how the food you eat affects your metabolism. This is a must-have tool for anyone interested in personalizing their nutrition. 

Quotes:

“The majority of hunting is not killing an animal or shooting an animal. It’s being in the woods being very quiet and observant.” – Sarah Long

“Going from grocery shopper to hunter is kind of like going from observer to participant in our natural ecosystem.” – Bruce McGlenn

“Are we going to tame all of the wildlands so that the world stops killing deer? We’re just part of a huge, natural system that was in place long before we came along.” – Bruce McGlenn

Transcript:

Diana Rodgers, RD  0:01  

Welcome to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. I’m Diana Rodgers, a real food registered dietitian, author, and sustainability advocate. I co-host this podcast with James Connelly who was a producer on my film Sacred Cow. I also founded the Global Food Justice Alliance an initiative advocating for the inclusion of animal source foods like meat, dairy, and eggs for a more nutritious, sustainable, and equitable worldwide food system. You can check it out and join me at globalfoodjustice.org. Thanks again for listening and now on to our show.

Diana Rodgers, RD  0:39  

All right, welcome back to the podcast everyone. Today I have with me, Bruce McGlenn, and Sarah Long. And we are going to be talking about their organization, Human Nature Hunting, and introducing people to hunting, getting used to it, if it’s something that you didn’t grow up doing. They also do some other cool foraging projects. And we may be collaborating a little bit in the future and so I wanted to have them on the show to talk about… you know, we’ve had a few hunting podcasts in the past and I always think it’s important to keep on talking about it. So welcome to the podcast, guys.

Bruce McGlenn  1:14  

Thanks, Diana.

Sarah Long  1:17  

Thank you, Diana. 

Diana Rodgers, RD  1:18  

So, Bruce, this is primarily your thing. Sarah, you’re a midwife, but you also participate in some of the workshops. So I’m going to just start with Bruce, you didn’t grow up thinking probably that you are going to be a hunting instructor, right? 

Bruce McGlenn  1:33  

No. I mean, I went into engineering, got a degree in civil engineering, was a structural engineer for a while in Seattle, working in a high-rise. But I think looking back, my longest-standing practice has always been hunting and fishing and just being outside. And my first memory of hunting was when I was three years old on my dad’s shoulders when he was hunting pheasants in the Columbia Basin in Central Washington. And a rooster flashed at our feet and he turned and took a shot. And I was holding on to his hair, try not to fall off, taking all this in and it was just a part of – a way of life for us.  And I started hunting when I was nine. And just, you know, just kept doing it among the rest of life. And eventually, it started to dawn on me that the connections and experiences I was having out there while hunting, and especially the longer hunts was really unique. And it’s something I wanted to share with folks. I didn’t see how I could do that by just taking them out on a hunt. But really wanted to try to give them the experience I was having, which was a fully immersive, connected to the environment, tuned in senses, turned on very grounded, and centered. And so long story short, we mean, that’s how we developed this program is to give people the skills and confidence to get out hunting on their own.

Diana Rodgers, RD  3:00  

That’s so great. And so can you explain a little bit about the types of different workshops that you run because they’re not just hunting, you do some cool shellfish ones too, which I think are really interesting.

Bruce McGlenn  3:11  

Yeah, we were actually just out we’re on the – out on the coast, Hood Canal, That’s where our shellfishing course is right now. It’s a good way to get your feet wet. It’s a one-day course. I show people how to break steamers and shuck oysters. Manila clams primarily. I mean, there are several different varieties out there. But we try to identify the different ones and give our opinions and what we think are better eating. And then we work with a chef there on-site and cook up a big feast from what people forage. Sit around the campfire and it’s just a way I mean, it’s combining both the nature and food and the community components, which we’ve talked about before being very important to have both of those. And it’s a good introduction for people who have never had a chance to get outside the grocery store aisles to get their food. I mean, we’re out quite aways from the roads and things and walk out on the tide flats a half mile and we get our food right there. And we can shuck an oyster and eat it. And it’s quite an experience for someone who’s never done that before.

Diana Rodgers, RD  4:19  

Yeah, I mean, so few people even have been to a farm, let alone out foraging food, which is like a whole other level of doing it. So that’s really great.

Bruce McGlenn  4:31  

And then just to finish your question, we do also do turkey hunting courses in the spring when we have a spring turkey season at our place over in Kettle Falls and are starting to incorporate more foraging and survival stuff into the mix. But by and large, the four day hunting course is what we do most of

Diana Rodgers, RD  4:51  

Uh-huh. And can you talk about the types of people that you see coming? Is there a certain sort of target market that you have or is it a huge range?

Bruce McGlenn  5:00  

It is a huge range of, say, adults in their 30s and 40s. You know, probably the majority, but we’ve had kids as young as three. And folks as old as in their 70s. Men and women, you know, just a whole variety of people from all different backgrounds and experiences. Some are definitely on their track to want to hunt but just haven’t started don’t know where to start. So this walks them through the process. Some are interested in it but aren’t sure about what it all is. So they want to see if it’s something that resonates with them. And I think some just want the experience. I mean, I say it’s kind of as close as you can get to a hunt without actually hunting. We provide all the equipment and tools and supplies. And we’re working with a real animal on the field dressing and skinning and butchering and shooting, doing simulated hunts in the field shooting targets. You get to get a sense of what all goes into it from the planning and prep to the work, you know, after the shot. And for some, that’s enough to just give them a kind of a little bit of a paradigm shift and where their food is coming from, and how much work it actually takes the difference between wild food and storebought factory-farmed meat protein.

Diana Rodgers, RD  6:18  

Right, right. And the two of you have an interesting story. So, Sarah, I would love for you to share your entrance into this world.

Sarah Long  6:27  

Yeah. So when Bruce and I met, which is over three years ago, now I had been a vegetarian for 12 years. And I was also and still I am a practicing meditator. And within the tradition that I practice, some of the guidance is to not kill any living being. And it’s not required to be a vegetarian to practice meditation or yoga, obviously, but I was following that path. And I grew up eating meat. But yeah, it had been 12 years. And so when I met Bruce, I wasn’t really sure if this was going to work out. Because it felt like it was quite different than my belief system and the life path I was on. But as you also mentioned, I’m a midwife so I am looking at the cycle of life. And I’m more involved with birth, the birth part of the life cycle. But as I got to know more about Bruce and how he approached hunting with such a deep reverence, and this holistic framework, I started to recognize that here was someone that is kind of a yin and yang of someone who’s really has had the lived experience of being part of giving death. You know, we talked about giving birth, but learning about giving death, I think, is really deepening my own understanding as a midwife. And the story up to now is that I have started eating meat. First, I just started with me that Bruce and his family had hunted or fished. And now I’ve started to eat a little beyond that. We recently made some elk and venison sausage and used some pork fat from a farmer friend of ours. So I’m starting to push beyond my limits. And then with hunting, I have gone out with Bruce a number of times and also fishing. And this past November we went, and Bruce and his family have been going for years. But it was the first year that I was able to join them for a two-week back-country elk hunt in Montana. And then after that, we also did some deer hunting in Montana. And it was the first time that I was right next to Bruce when he shot an animal and also was able to be part of the field dressing and bringing the animal out of the backcountry and all of that process. And I can certainly go into that more. But just, it was a very profound experience for me. And I’ve been thinking a lot about what my journey is, as I am with Bruce and I, after this hunting experience in Montana, I decided that I wanted to try hunting for myself. Even though I still have a lot of mixed feelings and some trepidation, I feel like I need to have that experience. And I don’t know if I’m going to want to keep hunting once I do it. But I’ve also learned going out with Bruce that the majority of hunting is not killing an animal or shooting an animal. It’s being in the woods being very quiet and observant. It is very different than hiking. I grew up doing outdoor activities, but I never hunted. And I mean you can be out backpacking and have a very connected experience to nature. But I think hunting is a different realm. And…

Diana Rodgers, RD  9:52  

Can you explain that a little bit more like you’re invoking different senses? Can you explain that a little bit because I think that… I mean I was really interested in Bruce’s story when he reached out to me and I really wanted to try to figure out some way of you know, doing some kind of collaboration, especially because my dad lives relatively near you guys. And I go out there every summer. But then I was so interested when he pulled you into one of our calls. And I think that most of the people that are followers of my work are women who really want to learn more about food production. A lot of them were a vegetarian or vegan at some point in their life, and just really care a lot about the environment, about nutrition, about health. And so I think that of all my podcast guests, you’re probably one of the most relatable to a lot of the listeners that I have. So can you talk a little bit more about your emotional journey through it and like what it feels like to be on a hunt versus backpacking?

Sarah Long  10:56  

Yeah. And I, and just, I mean, thanks for that. When we started talking, I was really curious to delve into this conversation with you as well. And I would love to share this experience with just that type of listener. You know, if people are interested to come out to the programs, or just continue this conversation because I think it’s really fascinating. And your work has been part of, for me, this kind of looking beyond my paradigm. And so I, as I said, I’m still very much on my own journey. And it’s not a clear answer for me yet. So I’m not coming on here to say like, oh, yeah, you should definitely stop being a vegetarian or vegan and start hunting. I’m saying it’s been a really, personally challenging journey, and also really rewarding to push beyond my previous comfort levels. Definitely. So yeah. I mean, Bruce speaks really well to this. What you mentioned of the senses that are involved in hunting. So when you’re backpacking, and I’ve done, I hiked a big section of the Oregon Pacific Crest Trail on my own as a college student. And so I’ve been out. And you’re definitely… I mean, for me, in something like that, I’m aware of what’s going on around me. I’m, you know, listening to animal sounds, I’m looking and taking in beautiful scenery.

Diana Rodgers, RD  12:19  

Oh, and I should interrupt you really briefly, because I can hear the animals that they came right on cue. And you mentioned, for the folks who are just listening, this is my first podcast, where my guests are actually sitting outside in front of this gorgeous, moss-covered tree, and it just looks beautiful. So alright, continue.

Sarah Long  12:41  

Yeah, so those senses are awake when one is outside. For hunting, you have a different purpose, you’re not there just to take in the beauty of the scenery and listen to beautiful birdsong. You’re trying to be totally silent and stealthy as you move through the environment. And you’re tuning into everything to try to see where is an animal and what signs they’ve left that give you visual cues or sense. You start to pick up on how other animals might be communicating the presence of, say, an elk. And it kind of, for me, having the experience during this hunt in Montana, I wasn’t carrying a rifle. And I didn’t have a tag to hunt myself, but I would go out on my own and just try to find elk. And the first very first day I just felt brought back into almost this childlike wonder that I used to experience when I was growing up. I would play a lot of make-believe games out in our backyard in the trees and just going into this thing where you’re totally focused on the task and your… I think there’s different things firing that connect to I mean, as humans, this was most of our ancestors if you go far enough back were hunters. And so there’s something that got turned on in me. And the first day I went out, I was exploring this kind of like, stealthy way. And then I heard just a branch crack, like the next ravine over and  I waited for a while and just listened. And then I followed the sound and I saw my first elk out in the wild and it just felt like so exciting to be able to start tuning into a world that I had previously and I don’t know how it’s gonna feel if I’m actually tracking that animal with the idea of shooting it because I haven’t had that fullness of the experience. So maybe I can let Bruce speak to that but and I don’t want to totally hog the conversation, but I just want to share a story on this note for a lot of your listeners coming into hunting or eating meat with a similar background as myself as with meditation and vegetarianism. But I had an experience a few months ago that I want to share. And it, I think speaks to the ongoing layers that I’m still peeling back in all this. And what happened was I’m part of a meditation group that’s over Zoom. And there’s people from all over the world that are part of this, and we have Zoom calls meet twice a month.

Sarah Long  15:35  

And during this one particular call, I was in our cabin, and I usually sit in the spot where there’s just a wood background behind me nothing else. But this one day, I went down to the table to have a snack, and I turned my video back on once I was sitting downstairs. And immediately I realized that in the back of my video frame now there was a mounted caribou head and elk antlers on the wall behind me. And without thinking, my first reaction was just to move my body to try to cover up this scene behind me in our cabin. And I had all this fear come up that, “oh my gosh, this group of other spiritual people, meditators, they’re going to see this and either they’re going to judge me negatively, or maybe they’re going to be offended by this.” And that just happened so quickly without me thinking through anything. And I’ve gone through my own judgment. When Bruce and I first got together, I have to say I felt quite uncomfortable with the mounted animal heads and antlers on the wall because my previous stereotype about hunters was that this was some kind of macho, boasting, or glorification of killing an animal and this kind of trophy. And I’ll just say Bruce is not a Trophy Hunter, his family has always hunted for meat not for as some people might consider hunting like a sport, it’s been really about food. And they’re all the most dedicated conservationists and environmentalists. And so that’s a whole nother topic. But just to say that I’ve kind of shifted my views about these things. But I still have the fears that I’m not going to be accepted by certain communities and certain people. And so I ended up posting, I wrote up something about this experience on this group message board that we have for this meditation group. And it was so amazing to hear so many people write in with similar experiences of, you know, having been part of different spiritual yoga meditation type communities, or even environmentally-minded, which you speak to so much, Diana, this thought that like, a plant-based diet is the best environmental choice you can make all that. But so many people wrote in saying, “Yeah, I have also struggled with this shame or fear that I’m not going to be accepted. And I found that eating meat was really felt better in my body. But I still have this conflict about all this.” And so, yeah, I just wanted to put that out there as just my own personal story of where I still am and how I’m bringing that now into what we’re offering together at Human Nature. So maybe I’ll leave it there because I could talk a lot more about this. But…

Bruce McGlenn  18:29  

Well, I mean you mentioned story. And you’ve talked about that before how much the story that we tell ourselves spilled out into the rest of our lives. And it really comes down to the stories that we’re telling ourselves. 

Diana Rodgers, RD  18:43  

I think a lot of people really relate to that a lot. So thank you for sharing that. And there are huge stereotypes of hunters. And I even watched –  there was a film called Trophy, I think it was called Trophy. Have you heard of that one? So it even gets complicated with that, because we’ve got endangered species in Africa and people trying to, you know, the trophy hunting industry is actually somewhat saving a lot of the species there. And it’s so there’s just nuance to everything, right? And so you can feel conflicted about trophy hunting, which still recognizes that if it wasn’t an industry, a lot of those animals might not have habitat anymore, just because, you know, of the value of the land and people need to make money, right?

Bruce McGlenn  19:35  

That kind of sounds like the ends justifying the means, which is might be totally valid. And I guess what, you know, what we’re delving into is the means. Yeah, I would hope that people going on those hunts are really thinking about this holistic picture, but the fear on the other side is someone a lot of money wants a… And it’s I don’t want to generalize. But the fear or the trap that we can fall into with monetizing this stuff is someone with money wants something, prove something or show something. And then someone might be getting into it for the wrong reasons, even though the effect is a positive one. And I think on a smaller scale situation, I never wanted to go into guiding because there’s such a different set of expectations around it. And it can be a wonderful experience for people to go on a guided hunt if they’re not up to speed to do it themselves. And I think it’s a very small sliver of the whole experience. And because often it’s the guy that’s done the planning and the prep, and knows how to navigate the backcountry and is doing the hunting. And the client might be there to take a shot. And in my experience, I mean, especially on these longer times. And going back to your stories about the differences, I think to add to that, I would say, you know, going from grocery shopper to hunter is kind of like going from observer to participant in our natural ecosystem, I mean, this, the universe, really, that what sustains us and creates all this in one. And going into a participant role, I think really tunes turns on and tunes us in differently. And it was on these longer trips that I realized that you know, took two or three days sometimes to settle in, and let my senses wake up and start listening to and trusting my intuition that beforehand that was kind of pushed aside and just muffled from sitting in a high rise in front of a computer all day. And it was that experience of being in the hunt, you know, connected to the land, no one there to show me or telling me what to do or where to go, no trails, no signs. You know, I could just wander and follow my nose and my instincts and whatever. It’s sort of like a choose your own ending story and venture. I think that’s where the magic is. And, obviously, shooting an animal is a big part of it. But it’s not a requirement. But I think what is required is to go out into the woods with the intention of doing that, that kind of shifts everything and to get people… So you know, like, if I could just bottle and share this experience, that’d be great. But there’s really no way to do that. So the closest thing I found was helping people by giving them the skills and confidence to get past those barriers to entry and those hurdles and get out there and start hunting, you know, on their own –  to have that same experience. And it’s a journey, I think, you know, after a four-day course with us, you’re not going to be an expert hunter. But you’re going to have a certain level of skills, you know, and a benchmark to be able to hit the ground running, and then continue that lifelong journey and learning.

Diana Rodgers, RD  22:54  

I just want to back up. I was not endorsing trophy hunting in any way. I’m sure it didn’t sound like that. But I’m just reiterating that. I just think it’s complicated. It’s just so complicated. I walked in with my own judgments even about that and walked out of that film understanding that there’s just a lot more to the story. You can have an emotional reaction one way but then understand that, unfortunately, there’s economics and there’s all these other factors, right, but I’m certain that the folks listening to this would be much more interested in the experience that you just described. 

Diana Rodgers, RD 23:28

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Diana Rodgers, RD 25:08

Can you talk about when you do one of your workshops, the types of things, you introduce people to me, and I bet a lot of them have never shot a gun before.

Bruce McGlenn  25:17  

Yes. And just to piggyback on that last comment before. I was thinking, as you’re talking that maybe it’s one of the factors that one of the ways we determine if these experiences are successful or not in the bigger picture is that what is someone’s attitude when they… when they’re done with the hunt when they come out of the hunt. Has their mindset changed towards the environment towards sustainability? Or do they just go back to doing what they had been doing before living the way they were living before they start to have a shift in the way they relate to the world? You know, did they start thinking about consuming less, you know, purchasing less, so you don’t waste as much? And I think that’s, you know, maybe that’s one of the metrics we could be looking at when it comes to the broad range of hunting is how it shapes our attitudes and actions towards the environment? And is it a one-off thing, where, you know, we’re making a big donation, but we’re still consuming twice as much as we need to? Or is it shifted us in a way that we become better stewards of the land, which is really what this, you know, Human Nature Hunting is about is trying to look at the broader picture and making a difference if we can? And so to get to your question about the courses, in a nutshell, here, I mean, it’s some people have never shot a rifle or bow. Most of them have never field dressed or butchered an animal. And I mean, those are two of the big components of the course. One of the first things we do is we spend about a good part of the day on, I mean, we work with a local farm to dispatch us an animal and we hide it in the woods run a blood trail to it, the students actually track it.

Sarah Long  27:02  

Usually a lamb or a sheep. We’re not working with a deer for the courses.

Bruce McGlenn  27:07  

This is all off-season. So we’re not, we can’t hunt a deer legally. But the benefit of that is, it’s a guaranteed situation, you know. There is an animal there, they track it, find it, and we get to work on it just like we would any deer or elk in the field and field dress it and skin it and hang it up to cool for the night. And the next morning, we break it down completely with knives only, just like we do with deer and elk. I mean, it’s a big anatomy lesson really knowing where everything is and how to take it apart and the different cuts. And then we get to eat the different cuts and organ meats over the next three days. And…

Diana Rodgers, RD  27:44  

You have a chef come in and do the cooking, right for the foodies that are listening to this. It’s the full experience,

Bruce McGlenn  27:51  

Right. And Sara has helped with that in the past too. And it’s a big job, but it’s rewarding for everyone I think, and to sit around the dinner table and share a meal after doing all this, is it really points to the camaraderie and community component of it. And we get people that fly in from all over the country and even outside the US with different political ideas and beliefs. And you know, at first, there’s been some times where like, I wonder how this is going to go down. But very quickly, you know, we get into a task, and we’re there because we all have shared values, you know, in this particular area, and then that becomes the focus and it becomes clear. And pretty soon that other stuff just kind of falls away and everyone’s sitting around the table cheersing and having a meal and get ready for the next day. And the next days, I mean, we cover all the planning and the prep and the gear and the regulations and the seasons and setting up backcountry camps. We are into rifles and bows, you know the logistics that people have never owned one and they want to how to wade through all the different options, optics. And we do several exercises in the woods to build awareness, you know, orienteering, map and compass tracking. And then some simulated hunts where we’re actually looking for targets in the woods to take shots at – much more field condition setting versus just doing something at the shooting range, which is very controlled. And then we often have a chance to do a ground squirrel hunt at the end, which kind of helps bring it all together. And it’s a very small-scale version of a deer or an elk hunt. But for someone who’s never shot something, you still have to get to the same place of being comfortable with pulling the trigger at a live target. And so it’s a good exercise a good stepping stone in that regard. Did I miss anything? And the meals are a big part. It’s the time together and people often – we do groups of six and people are coming in one or two at a time, a lot of you know, just a lot of single participants. No one knows each other. Like I said, very quickly, we become a pretty cohesive team.

Diana Rodgers, RD  30:08  

How do they hear about you? How do they learn about your workshops?

Bruce McGlenn  30:12  

Through the Diana Rodgers podcast. Yeah, just word of mouth. We’ve done some very old-fashioned hanging up flyers in cafes. I go to the Ballard farmers market when I’m in Seattle and set up a table. I was just there yesterday. And it’s amazing how many people come out of the woodworks and are interested in hunting, but they don’t know where to turn to, where to ask. And then some hunters wander by and they’re like, they’re really excited to see something hunting-related in a progressive city. And they always want to know how much flack I’m getting or, you know, push back, which has been very little. It seems to be, you know, maybe it’s just more and more accepted as the food awareness movement is grown. And people start to realize that hunting is actually, you know, has the potential to connect us closer to back to the roots of our food.

Diana Rodgers, RD  31:10  

We talked about the idea of doing an all-women’s group, like through Sustainable Dish, through my followers. I was hoping to do that this summer. But demand for talks and everything is really been pretty intense for me this year now that COVID is over. But I’m very interested in doing it. And so for anyone who’s listening, please, if you want to do it this year, you can check out Is it human nature? What’s your website?

Bruce McGlenn  31:35  

Human nature hunting.com

Diana Rodgers, RD  31:38  

Human nature hunting.com. So you can check out the availability for this year, but then let us know either through my email or reach out to them and let us know if you would be interested in a women’s hunt. And maybe Sarah and I can collaborate on perhaps making, custom tailoring a little bit of the experience for women specifically, who maybe have a little more internal conflict about it. Although I’m sure I know, you probably have had experiences with people in your group that I mean… Have you had any totally vegetarians that have just walked in and wanted to do it right off the bat?

Bruce McGlenn  32:19  

I have had a couple that some similar to you like very spiritually oriented folks that are not in the hunting and killing scene but they wanted to explore that side. So I think a lot of people that show up for this, they’ve already started the journey somewhere along the line, I mean, they’ve gone through a few steps… 

Diana Rodgers, RD  32:39  

It’s probably not like the perfect entry point for someone who’s like, maybe I’m gonna eat meat, I think I’ll go on a hunt. Like, it’s probably that’s a big leap.

Bruce McGlenn  32:48  

It’s a big leap, but I think it’s a very safe one. Because it’s not a hunt, they don’t have to kill anything. And they can walk away and never hunt, but still have had this experience of getting their hands on it. But it is, you know, back to the stories we tell ourselves and some people just have it in their minds that it’s not something that they want to do, which is their choice. But I think people are starting to think about it more and more and questioning the systems that we’ve created for ourselves. And…

Sarah Long  33:20  

I was also thinking we’ve had some folks come in who have been meat-eaters, and then they after going through this experience, they feel like they don’t want to eat meat unless it’s something they’ve hunted. So they kind of go in the reverse order from like meat-eater to more vegetarian, or, you know, really feeling like they need to take responsibility for the lives of the animals if they’re going to eat them. So that also happened.

Bruce McGlenn  33:49  

And, you know, speaking of women, we’ve had, a lot of courses are 50/50, you know, half women, half men. So I think we’re working hard to make it accessible to anybody from any background. Actually my mom 25 years ago, maybe started a nonprofit called Washington Outdoor Women. It’s mostly women teaching women skills and Washington outdoor skills in Washington and my dad and I were recruited from the early days to help with that. That’s kind of partly where the roots for this program, perhaps formed and building on that. But those were, of course, all women. Of course, that was teaching the big game hunting there too. And listening to the stories of women, older women, I mean, grown, adult women who had grown up in a hunting family, but they were never invited to go along with their dad and brother. It was a guy’s thing. They always wanted to and maybe now their fathers passed away and they’re sort of sentimentally wanting to go back and pick that skill up. It’s not an easy thing to do if you don’t have a family to teach you or really close group of friends.

Diana Rodgers, RD  35:00  

Definitely not. I wouldn’t know where to start. I actually, when I had Danielle Prewett on the show, I was like, “Take me out,” because I don’t – All the people that I know that are hunters here are like, dudes, I don’t know, I think I would feel a little uncomfortable just being like, Take me along or show me what to do.” This definitely seems like something you don’t just read a book about, right? You need to like go out and actually have someone teach you. And so many people haven’t had that experience.

Bruce McGlenn  35:29  

If you’re motivated, you can read and research and just get out there. And but it might take you five or 10 years to figure out, you know, make the mistakes that I made when I was nine and 10 years old. So I mean, it’s not impossible, but it’s just we’re trying to make it or streamline it and make it much easier. So if anyone is wanting to get out there and experience it, don’t feel like you have to do something – I mean, obviously, you need to get a certain level of skills and safety. And that’s, you know, what we cover. I’m not encouraging someone to go out and do it an unsafe situation. But on the other hand, I guess it is also kind of a culture that’s not accessible for various reasons. I mean, I think a lot of hunters don’t like the idea of more hunters coming in, because it’s more competition, which is kind of true. But for a couple generations now, we’ve been on a decline of hunters, which equates to a decline of conservation, money, and resources and a decline in interest in the health of the habitat and resources, which not to say only hunters think about those things. But the majority of the conservation efforts in the past been from hunters and fishers. People that get out there and interact with the resource. So if we lose, if hunting just disappears, we could a lot of the habitat, wildlife could disappear with it.

Diana Rodgers, RD  36:56  

Yeah, I think a lot of people don’t realize number one, that a lot of the conservation efforts in this country are paid for by hunters through different license fees and everything. But also hunting itself is a huge ecosystem function that needs to be done here in eastern Massachusetts. We have a massive problem with overpopulation of deer. And actually, there was a woman in my town, a mom of another kid who wrote a letter to the newspaper saying that she was so traumatized, she and her kids were so traumatized in the morning on their drive to school because they had to witness a dead deer in the back of someone’s truck on the way to school. And she’s vegan, and she is very upset about this. And she wants to just walk out in the conservation land without any fear of hunters being around or any fear that she might see a dead animal, right. And I can understand that, but at the same time, these deer here are eating the ground-nesting bird habitat. There’s just way too many. They’re causing car accidents. We don’t have a natural predator for these deer, and a lot of them aren’t healthy. And so we really need to be culling them. We have to be calling them and the only solution is to have safe hunting happening around here.

Bruce McGlenn  38:20  

Right? And are we going to tame all of the wildlands so that the world stops killing deer? And now the mountain lions stop killing things. And we’re just part of a huge, natural system that was in place long before we came along. This may be a conversation for version 2.

Diana Rodgers, RD  38:40  

No. We get into this stuff on the podcast, keep going.

Bruce McGlenn  38:43  

But yeah, it’s not that going forward, what who 2 million years maybe humans and our ancestors have been hunting and gathering and we’re here because our ancestors were successful hunters. And it’s not to say that the past dictates the future. But hunting has been a part of us and has gotten us to where we are. And if we, you know, the first sign of – Aldo Leopold said the first sign of intelligent tinkering is you don’t take a piece out and throw it away if you don’t understand it. You know, if the system is good, the parts that make up the system has also be good or contribute to that. I feel like hunting is a part of that system. Part of this system. And we’ve gotten close to just pulling it out and throwing it away because in a very short period of time, you know that the commercial meat industries and the basically the Industrial Revolution, the commercialization of everything has just shifted everything from a very connected hands-on sustainable living situation to the commodification of everything. And it’s actually been hunters who 100 years ago, outlawed commodification of wildlife. They said we can’t keep killing and selling wild animals. You know, we can’t keep killing every buffalo we see and cutting the tongue out, the hide off, and leaving it to waste just because it brings a couple of dollars. That was ruining a lot of the habitat and wildlife and that I think some people think of as hunting, but it was more market hunting, was more of a business. And hunting nowadays is different in that you cannot sell wild game. So anything you hunt, you either give away or consume yourself. And it’s a lot of work that goes into it. So you think twice about who you give your precious elk to.

Diana Rodgers, RD  40:31  

Anything else you want to add, any other resources for people, or other thoughts that you have before we go?

Bruce McGlenn  40:38  

We are on Instagram, human nature hunting, I think, I don’t know, I think it’s, it’s great to talk with you and connect with your audience, you know, we really are working hard to, like I said, make this accessible to anyone and everyone. This is not just to hone the hardcore hunters. This is at the very least to give experience to anyone who has a curiosity to this world, in this realm and how we are connected to it and how we can be, and how hunting can enhance our life experience as a human being on this planet. 

Diana Rodgers, RD 41:12

Thank you.

Sarah Long  41:13  

I’m just really excited with this idea that we’ve talked about with you Diana have, of course, and as we said we do multi-gender courses. We haven’t by circumstance, we haven’t had an all- women’s course yet. And people are welcome to sign up to any of our courses. But I think it would be really neat to have that group and just bring in more of these conversations that we’ve started here and in our earlier things. And yeah, just to touch on that story that you shared of people not wanting to see any death, I think about that a lot as someone in the healthcare system. And I mean, we could expand this could expand to a whole conversation of, what COVID has shown us about our culture and our relationship with death and our fear of death. And I certainly don’t have the answers. I think about this a lot. And as I’ve gone on this journey of exploring hunting for myself, I think there’s something really valuable to be gained to facing death in this way. And I think there’s a lot. Yeah, I just I think it’s it’s a hard topic for people to face, I don’t pretend that it’s should be easy for people to see death. And I also think that being present with that can create a lot more peace in one’s life. And to seeing this as part of a cycle instead of just this dichotomy of bad and good. And I really appreciate the work you’re doing around that. And just going back to also what Bruce said about stories, I’ve been starting to become much more aware of the kind of subconscious messaging around this. For instance, I’ve seen some ads pop up on YouTube of the Beyond Meat now being carried at Kentucky Fried Chicken. And the imagery is of this woman like floating in the clouds, kind of like an angelic scene. And I just realized, like, oh, this, there’s the messaging is coming at us from all angles of this idea that not eating meat makes you a more pure, angelic, good person. And I think it’s great to just start being more aware of the stories that we’ve heard around hunting, and the place of death in our world and in our food system. And so I look forward to continuing this conversation. And of course, are welcome, folks from your community to reach out to us because I think this is a really fascinating and endlessly deep topic to delve into.

Diana Rodgers, RD  43:57  

100%, I’m reminded of when I was working in hospitals and realized how many people didn’t have a MOLST form. So end of life decree right. And because even in America, only about 30% of people have wills and you’re automatically Do Not Resuscitate if you don’t have it written down that you don’t want that. And I’ve seen a few people through the process of dying. And a lot of people haven’t experienced that either. And there’s definitely better and worse ways to go. And I’d like to be able to have control over how that goes for me. And I think it’s certainly something I think about a lot. And I’ve written about a little especially when I was working in hospitals. I wrote a little bit about that at the end but yeah, such a big point. And I think it’s about fear and seeing death as the end of a line instead of a circle, which is exactly what you just said. So let’s do a workshop. I can’t wait And we’ll get something in the book so that I don’t get double-booked for next year. So for 2023. So if anyone is interested, let us know, we’ll try to put a group together for the summer of 2023. But if you’re eager to go, I highly encourage you to give these guys a follow, to sign up to get some reporter to write about this. And let’s encourage more people to have this experience. So thank you so much for your time.

Bruce McGlenn  45:26  

Thank you, Diana, great talk.

Sarah Long  45:28  

Thanks, Diana.

Diana Rodgers, RD  45:28  

 Talk to you soon.

Diana Rodgers, RD  45:31  

Thank you so much for tuning in to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a review on iTunes and check out my website at sustainabledish.com where you can sign up for my newsletter, catch up on the latest blog post, and check out my courses and favorite products. See you next time and thanks again for listening.

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1 thought on “Sustainable Dish Episode 195: Human Nature Hunting”

  1. Still in the middle of listening to this podcast and I love the low key and open minded approach to hunting you’ve taken with these guests. I hunt and identify with their approach. It’s about connecting with nature and seeing if I can match wits well enough to provide for me and my family.
    Here’s a recommendation for guests who hunt and have journeyed towards hinting are Greg and Mindy from the YouTube channel The Hunting Public. I would love to see this interview come about.

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