Become a Sustainavore!

Eat for your health, the planet, and your values.

Become a Sustainavore!

Eat for your health, the planet, and your values.

Sustainable Dish Episode 222: Michelle Hurn, RD

Michelle Hurn is a registered dietitian who worked in clinical practice for years when she experienced a health crisis that changed everything. After following a short-term carnivore diet and transitioning to a ketogenic way of eating, she realized she could not continue to recommend the standards of dietetic practice in the clinical setting. 

Now, Michelle has turned her focus to a new venture: The Protein Project. Their mission is to reduce food insecurity and improve health by providing animal-based foods, nutrition education, and social connections to the local community and throughout the United States. 

The Protein Project is working directly with food pantries to get these nutritious foods into the hands of those that need them the most.

During this episode, Michelle and I chat about:

  • How Michelle got into the nutrition field
  • Michelle’s turning point that led to her writing a book
  • Our experiences in clinical practice
  • The importance of protein, especially for those that are food insecure
  • The Protein Project’s first project

I love when I can connect with a fellow dietitian that understands how important animal-sourced foods are to human health. If you are inspired by Michelle’s work, check out her first fundraising campaign, which will get holiday turkeys to patrons of food pantries.

The Protein Project: Reducing Food Insecurity with Meat (gofundme.com)

 

Resources:

The Dietitian’s Dilemma by Michelle Hurn, RD

Dr. Chris Palmer

Study: Low Carbohydrate ketogenic therapy as a metabolic treatment for binge eating and ultra-processed food addiction 

Dr. Georgia Ede 

Sustainable Dish Episode 218: Jan Ellison Baszucki (keto diet and mental health)

Sacred Cow

The Protein Project

Ede Fox – Black Carnivore 

Study: Priority Micronutrient Density in Foods 

 

Connect with Michelle:

Website: The Dietitian’s Dilemma | The Protein Project

Instagram: @runeatmeatrepeat

 

Episode Credits:

Thank you to all who’ve made this show possible. Our hosts are Diana Rodgers and James Connelly. Our producer is Emily Soape. And, of course, we are grateful for our sponsors, Patreon supporters, and listeners.

If you’re ready to take your support for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable food system to the next level, join my Global Food Justice Alliance community on Patreon. You will have access to ad-free podcasts, exclusive videos, a discussion community, and much more. Go to sustainabledish.com/join to support my work.

A big thanks to the sponsor of today’s show, LMNT. Do you often suffer from headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, or sleeplessness? It could be from an electrolyte deficiency, and drinking plain water may not be enough to replenish lost electrolytes. LMNT is a drink mix that has everything you need and nothing you don’t –  no artificial ingredients, food coloring, gluten, fillers, or sugar! 

LMNT comes in lots of great flavors, and when you go to sustainabledish.com/LMNT, you’ll get a free sample pack with your purchase. Plus, they have a convenient subscription program that makes it easy for you to keep your favorite flavors fully supplied. Head over to sustainabledish.com/LMNT to give it a try. 

 

Quotes:

“Let’s just give people nutrition.” – Michelle Hurn, RD 

“No doctor would say only eat organic carrots or don’t eat carrots.” – Diana Rodgers, RD

 

Transcript:

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Welcome to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. I’m Diana Rodgers, a real food registered dietitian, author, and sustainability advocate. I co-host this podcast with James Connelly, who was a producer on my film Sacred Cow. I also founded the Global Food Justice Alliance, an initiative advocating for the inclusion of animal-source foods like meat, dairy, and eggs for a more nutritious, sustainable, and equitable worldwide food system. You can check it out and join me at global food justice.org. Thanks again for listening. And now, on to our show. 

(Patreon Ad) Diana Rodgers, RD   

Ready to take your support for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable food system to the next level? Join my Global Food Justice Alliance community on Patreon and have access to ad-free podcasts, exclusive videos, and a discussion community, plus so much more. Go to sustainable dish.com/join to support my work, and thank you. 

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Welcome to the podcast, everyone. Today I have with me, Michelle Hurn. She is a fellow dietitian. And I’m really excited to have her on. We’re going to be talking protein, and also the need for protein even within the United States, but certainly also globally. There’s a huge need for protein despite what people like Walter Willett might be saying in the Washington Post. We do have protein needs, and especially among people who are food insecure. So welcome, Michelle. 

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

So before we get into everything, I love to just kind of hear people’s background. I mean, this is not a typical route. We are very atypical dietitians. And so how did… when did you become a dietitian? Were you already sort of like tuned in to real food? Or was this an evolution since you became a dietitian? What drove you to…

Michelle Hurn, RD  

I’ll try to give you just the Reader’s Digest version of my kind of my story and how I got into this. So you know, my health journey really begins when I was 12 years old. When I was 12 years old, I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa, I was about five feet tall and weighed 57 pounds. So was put into inpatient treatment, you know, I was told that I had about a 10% chance to survive, you know, my health was falling apart, you know, my heart was failing kidneys failing -a mess. And I was able to regain weight. That was my first meeting with a registered dietitian. I was put on the standard American diet, but I was told, you’re probably going to deal with racing thoughts around food and severe anxiety of the rest of your life. So I just thought, oh, my gosh, I’m gonna have to become this like high-functioning human with, you know, an eating disorder. And that was true throughout my adolescence and into college and became an athlete, but I was constantly, fixated on food, snacks all the time, tried really hard to follow the guidelines. And I wanted to become a dietitian, because I thought like, oh my gosh, if I can just maybe learn more about food,  maybe I can help my anxiety, maybe. And I had all kinds of GI problems, you know, and I was just told, Oh, this is just always the way it’s going to be. This is your lot in life. And you know, when I became a dietitian, you might have experienced some similar things. You know, when I went through the internship, there were things that didn’t make sense. Like, I’ll never forget going into the room of someone with, you know, severe type two diabetes and the diet –  my preceptor said, “Hey, we’re going to feed them carbohydrates every single meal in consistent doses.” And I would just ask questions, I would just say, “Hey, does that make sense? Aren’t they… don’t they not tolerate carbohydrates?” Well, you know, “Oh, Michelle, everybody needs carbohydrates, it’s the base of the food pyramid.” Then we went to the ICU. And I remember flipping over the tube feeding, and I’m like, Oh, my God, this is what I was fed as a 12 year old you know, the number one ingredient in a tube feeding is corn syrup, solids, maltodextrin, soy protein. And I just, I would just ask questions like, why aren’t we giving these people whey protein? Why isn’t there better sources and all it’s all calories-in and calories-out. So that was kind of pegged as this like a difficult dietetic student. But you know, you’re new and you’re a student. So I just became a dietitian working in the clinical setting. And I saw over and over that people just weren’t getting better, you know, and I was told, Oh, it’s the patients, you know. They’re just… if they would only follow the guidelines. So they would just eat this lean protein. And if they eat more whole grains, and more fruits and vegetables, they would be well, but for the most part, I saw my patients were really trying to do that, but they weren’t getting better. So, you know, in 2019, we moved to Colorado, we moved back to the Pacific Northwest. We live right outside of Portland, Oregon. I was working in the hospital setting, and I was actually trying to qualify for the Olympic trials in the marathon. I’m a marathon runner, and I had my own health crisis. You know, I went from being able to run you know, 10-15 miles pretty easily, too. I would go out on a run, I would break out in cold sweats my whole body hurt. And I reached out to a few sports dietitians. I said, I need help, like, you know, what should I do? And I showed them my diet. You know, at the time, I was eating about 350 grams of carbs, maybe 60 grams of protein, you know, trying to get the soy, trying to get the chicken, really low fat. And they told me oh my gosh, you’re not getting enough carbohydrates. You need more sugar, more bananas. Nobody told me I needed more protein and nobody told me, “Hey, all these carbohydrates are causing a massive problem with your blood sugar.” So as you can imagine, you know ate more carbohydrates and my performance went from bad to worse. And my anxiety went from, you know, difficult to having to call into work because I was having panic attacks. And I guess a my come-to-Jesus moment was I had had a difficult day in the hospital, I covered oncology. So we had a young patient pass, came home early, I fell asleep on the couch it like two in the afternoon, and then I woke up, and it was like two in the morning. And it just felt like my body was on fire. Everything hurt. And I know so many people, you know, in our society have that kind of pain and all these issues. And so here I am standing in my living room at two in the morning. And I literally, I do not know what to do. I’ve tried, you know, prescription medication, I’ve tried ibuprofen, I’ve tried, you know, alcohol, and a few other things. And so at that moment, you know, got my car, drove to 7/11 got 30 pounds of ice, put it in the bathtub, sitting in the bathtub, crying, you know, an ice bath. And that’s when my partner came in. And she said, “Hey, maybe we should do something different.” And I was like, “Yes, I’m done running,” I’d say No more running. And then I just had, I had no idea at that moment that my life would change forever. Like, I thought this is the lowest moment. But that’s when I decided like maybe I should try a lower-carb diet because I intuitively knew carbohydrates didn’t make me feel well. But I had no idea just how inflammatory processed carbohydrates were. And when I did that, I actually ended up doing a full carnivore diet – only meat and fat for 30 days, which you can imagine, you know, my partner had seen me deal with eating disorder stuff said like, this is terrible. All this meat is not good for you. But I just had this strange intuition. Like, just let me do this for 30 days. My only goal was this, maybe this protein will help heal my body. Because I, like you, was trained as a dietitian, I was scared. I was like, “Oh my gosh, am I going to, you know, am I getting sick? Is this gonna cause problems?” And within three weeks, I kid you not, I came home from work and my wife was sitting on the couch and was like, “Hey, will you come talk to me for a minute?” And you never want to hear that from your partner? Like, oh, no, what? Someone die? What did I do? And she said, “I don’t know if I like you eating so much meat. But this is the best your anxiety has been in the 11 years that I’ve known you.” And at that point, we both were like, “Whoa, this is… what is going on?” You know, I had had anxiety since I was 12. At that point, I was 36. And I was calm. And you know, I still working at a hospital, I had access to all kinds of clinical trials, you know, research articles, and I could not believe the research that was available on low carbohydrate diets reversing Type 2 diabetes, and mental health disorders and needing the protein. People don’t understand. And you and I will get more into this. Meat isn’t just protein, it’s all the cofactors and stuff that actually allows your brain to function. I think my poor brain had just been starved for so long. And at that point, you know, it’s like, once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And I very naively thought like, oh my gosh, everyone in the hospital I work with is going to be so excited. I’m going to teach this, they’re going to want me to talk about it. I’m gonna reverse diabetes and I was immediately told like, “Hey, yeah, about that. No.” I was told, you know, you will get suspended, you will not be allowed to practice, doesn’t matter. It’s just not the standard of care. And so it wasn’t too much longer, you know, that I just felt like, I can’t be part of a system that’s hurting people, you know, that literally, I have this information that can help people and I can’t teach it. Not only that, I’m forced to teach the food pyramid which is hurting people. And so I decided I would write the book, you know, The Dietitian’s Dilemma: What do You do When your Health is Restored? Advocating for a low-carb, high-fat, animal-based diet are really my…  you know, my chapter that has the most work cited, the most clinical articles is plants versus animals. We have so many good resources on, you know, the bioavailability of animal protein and just not even protein, but all the vitamins and minerals that are just not available in plants. And after writing the book, you know, I started to dream again about running like maybe my running career isn’t over. And you know, my poor wife, she was like, “Oh, cool, you can be a recreational runner, this will be great.” And I said, “What if I run ultra marathons?” And so 26 miles, maybe I’ll run 50 miles and I mean, she wasn’t super excited about that idea. But I don’t know I am so grateful that you know eating so much meat and fat just gave me my health back. And since my I started my, you know, keto-carnivore journey in October of 2018, and I ran my first Ultra in November of 2020. I wanted to do it earlier, but they kept getting cancelled, unfortunately, with COVID. But I’ve run now a six-hour race where I’ve covered 46 miles, I’ve run a 50-mile race and I’ve run 100 Kilometer races (62 mile race), and I’ve won all four of them. So you know, I’ve been super fortunate to be very successful in ultra running even on a low-carb diet. And I attribute much of that to, you know, the animal proteins that I eat

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Well, wow, what a wonderful story. And you know, it’s funny because when I did my dietetic, I did my dietitian training in my 30s. So I had already had a previous career. So I was like the same age as my mentor as my, you know, preceptors. So that was a little awkward and the professors in the program, but I remember I was sitting in the hospital cafeteria, we would all eat lunch together. And I kind of knew better than to say anything. Well, I knew I shouldn’t say anything. That didn’t mean I didn’t say anything, but I knew I shouldn’t. And I actually did a chart… So I was working in acute long-term care. So basically, people that were, you know, for those listening, people who are discharged from ICU, but too sick to go into a traditional rehab or nursing facility, because they needed IV support, or they just needed extra, they couldn’t just have skilled nursing care, they actually needed doctors. And so the average length of stay was three to four weeks. And I had a lot of extra time on my hands when I was there. And I was kind of bored one day, and I decided to track insulin dosage of the patients from day one of admission until release date. And it was just up because I noticed that when I would go into the room of a Type 2 diabetic and I would try to counsel them, like I can be sending you up lower carb food, if that’s what you’d like – my preceptor was kind of open to at least me talking to them about that, like lower carb. And so when I had like two or three patients that actually, you know, took me up on that offer. But the endocrinologist got stressed out because he didn’t want to have to go in and fumble with insulin dosage, like he wanted to do just his standard, like slowly ratchet the insulin up, right and so to have to dramatically lower, it was like too much work for him.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yes, I came across that a lot. When I talked to a doctor, he was like, Well, if your patients, the patients start eating lower carb, I’m gonna have to change the insulin regimen. And I was like, okay, and it’s like, well, that’s a good thing. We want to reduce insulin, right? It’s like, oh, well, I don’t have time for that or who’s gonna monitor that, you know, type of thing. So there are so many different factors. It’s really unfortunate, this system really isn’t set up to help people heal specifically in acute care.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Yes, but I did have a great story from that internship. And that was that I was sitting there, I was eating my salad with my, whatever protein on it. And my preceptor was sitting there, my boss, career dietitian, been on Weight Watchers ever since she was a teenager. And she’s like, how… what are you doing? Like, that’s just, you know, and she was just having salad with no protein, you know, and drinking her diet coke and then still struggling with weight. And so I just suggested, you know, you might want to, you could try a Whole30. It’s just a good like, first step, it can really be life-changing for some people. Like worst case, you go 30 days without your diet coke or your, you know, favorite candy bar or whatever. And she did it. It blew her mind. And now she is a Whole30 coach for women over 50 Yeah, it changed her life.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

I love that. Because, you know, unfortunately, I have found a lot of resistance with traditional dietitians, you know, talking about because when I first changed, I was still working in the hospital. So you can imagine I go there and I, you know, I was running. So I’d run in the morning, you know, shower in the locker room, and I’d come back and you know, everybody’s eating their oatmeal and bagels and bananas, and I got this like bowl of beef. And I remember, one of our dietitians was like you’re gonna get sick like that is gonna cause heart disease. And this particular dietitian was obese, which is you know, not my business, whatever. But I remember thinking that’s very interesting that you have this in your… I get this, you know, in your head that meat is bad. Meat is so bad, because, you know, I’m, you know, I’m pretty lean, I’m a runner, and it’s like he or she is eating bagels, but she’s telling me oh, that’s gonna cause a problem for you. So it’s like we being dietitians have been taught, you know, the Academy of Nutrition. Ugh, don’t get me… you and I can probably go off on that, you know, that is the kind of Academy of Nutrition is the governing board of all dietitians is heavily sponsored by processed foods, you know, Coca Cola, Pepsi. You know, they just released a study that they’ve been taking… Yeah, we knew they were sponsored by Pepsi. I did not know they’ve been investing in PepsiCo stocks. You know, that seems like a conflict of interest to me. But yeah, there’s a long way to go and getting nutritional or getting diet – traditional dietitians on board with the fact that we need more protein, not less.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

And another thing is, as you mentioned, you wanted to study nutrition because you had an eating disorder. And, you know, I often tell people that when you go around the room when you’re becoming an RD and you’re new to the class, and everyone’s like, I’m becoming a dietitian, because I would say, all but two people in every class was had been suffering from an eating disorder. And, you know, I got into this because of my celiac disease, but the mantra in the eating disorder community is everything in moderation. No food is bad. And that may work. I don’t specialize in eating disorders. So, I just don’t even tangle with it at all. It’s not my area of expertise. But perhaps that is good advice for someone who is so afraid of all foods. But that certainly doesn’t serve people who are suffering from overconsumption of ultra processed foods, which is the majority of the people in the United States.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, you know, I’ve been really fortunate to do two talks and, you know, interview like Dr. Chris Palmer, Dr. Shivani, you know, people who have worked with mental health and eating disorders. And you know, Dr. Shebani released her study on a ketogenic diet and binge eating disorder. And once again, you’re 100% right, the mantra is, you cannot ask somebody with a dysfunctional relationship with food to eliminate certain food groups. But what they’re… when you say that what I mean, it sounds good on the surface, like, oh, yeah, of course, that makes sense. But that’s not taking into account what certain foods do to the body into the brain. And when I say that, you know, we know that very ultra processed foods, those high glycemic carbs are gonna cause big spikes and crashes and blood sugar, which is very anxiety provoking. It can cause you know, obesity, Type 2 diabetes, a lot of issues. But it can also alter the neurotransmitters in your brain. You know, we have evidence; Dr. George Ede released a great study, that people who ate a lot of ultra-processed foods that actually shifted glutamate in the brain. A lot of people are familiar with the neurotransmitter dopamine. But we see really high levels of glutamate in people like suicide victims, people dealing with, you know, certain mental disorders. And what that does when you have high levels of glutamate, it actually suppresses neuroplasticity, and neuroplasticity is important for your brain to mold and change and take in new information. So I argue it’s like, Hey, if you’re dealing with anorexia, or you know, bulimia or binge eating disorder, you need to cope with stress and take in new information. You’re trying to change your behavior. Also, at the same time, when you’re eating a lot of, you know, like, Oh, you’re… when I was, you know, anorexic, and I was in the treatment center, I was immediately forced to eat the standard American diet and being tube fed at the same time, and I was on 12 different medications for anxiety, stomach pain, nausea, all this stuff. Where, you know, when you take a step back, it’s like, what if I had just been fed with whole foods, you know, and prioritizing a lot of fats and proteins, I think my outcome would have been very different. And we also know that, you know, the statistics for eating disorders are awful. You think general healthcare is awful. I mean, 50% of people have relapse, and that’s defining relapse as actually going back into treatment for eating disorders. And I would argue, like 100% have, you know, life-altering thoughts, you know, it kind of, you know, I describe it as, like, I felt like I was standing on the sidelines in life. And a lot of dietitians don’t even believe in food addictions and things like that. And I’ve talked with many people who, you know, they truly their whole life was changed when they abstain from you know, ultra-processed foods and sugar. So, yeah, I’m kind of on a team. You know, if you had told me when I was, you know, suffering as a 12 year old, and certainly through my adolescence, like, hey, you know, what, if you just don’t eat these ultra processed carbs, and you focus on protein and fat, your anxiety is going to be like, a million times better, I would have loved that, as opposed to like, hey, you need to try to eat everything in moderation. You know, because as you can imagine that super high carb, lower protein, lower fat diet, mess with my hormones, destroyed my teeth. I have low bone density and severe anxiety. That’s not a human-appropriate diet. You know, it was just really interesting. And you and I could talk more about this with protein is every species has a species specific diet, that’s just like science, we have a tortoise, right? We have Gribs, the tortoise, we have Jackson our German Shepherd. They eat very differently, you know, because they’re different species. And human species thrived eating meat and fat throughout evolution, which makes it so funny that people argue like, oh, meat is inflammatory. Meat is bad for you. It’s like, if that was true, the human race would not exist. Just you don’t have to know… you don’t have to see any study. Like, let’s start with common sense here. Goodness, so yeah. So that’s why my advocacy has, you know, and I get, and I’m sure you deal with this too, on social media. I just get kind of burnout with people arguing and going back and forth. And so I was like, you know what, I want to do something. I want to give back. And that’s why I started, you know, what I’m calling The Protein Project. And our goal is we just want to get protein. And when I say protein, I’m talking like animal-based real biological protein to people dealing with food insecurity because you know, I have a hypothesis that processed foods certainly target people who are low income. And unfortunately, you know, having worked in the hospital, let’s say you have somebody who is, you know, lower income, struggling, maybe working two jobs and the doctors like, oh, yeah, eat healthier. Yeah, do that, gives you maybe gives you a sheet like no real direction. You know, this person’s like, Okay, well, I’m working two jobs, I took public transportation to get here, I don’t have a lot of money. So I just want to help remove the barriers from that. I want to, you know, I’m going to be working with local food pantries to get meat, to get from… because we’re, I’m fortunate. I’m in Portland, Oregon. So I’ve got you know, there’s a lot of farms around here to get beef, to get eggs, to get cheese into these pantries for people. And you know, and also, you know, we’re not, you know, and certainly I’ll be asking for donations from the public to get this funded. But I want to make sure the farmers are paid too. You know, it’s so hard to be a farmer. And also from stores. You know, I know sometimes people really argue over oh, you should only eat meat if it’s grass fed, regenerative farm, you know, brews a good latte? Like, it’s like, can we just start with getting people eating meat? You know, let’s just start there. Right? Obviously, I want to support regenerative agriculture, but you know, some people, it’s not… the prices of everything, you know, we’re recording this in October 2022, has gone through the roof. So that’s something that I’m working on, I’m working on a project to just make meat and eggs and cheese more accessible to people struggling with food insecurity.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

You just brought up so many things, I wrote some things down because I just relate to you on every single level. And especially the last thing you said, because I get in arguments constantly. In fact, I was… there’s a conference that I may or may not be speaking at because it’s coming up early in 2023. But it’s because of my position that poor people should have access to meat period. And those with the money who can afford the better meat should definitely buy that. And we can all change the system, step by step. But the reality for the majority of people is that they’re suffering from micronutrient deficiencies in particular, you know, women from iron, zinc. And, you know, we just need to get healthy food to people. And the reality is typical meat is also a healthy food. And we can still try to get regular people healthy food while also advocating for regenerative agriculture. So I’m 100% with you on that. And it’s a nuance that most people in the grass-fed beef world who you know, advocate for regenerative agriculture don’t understand the nutritional importance of getting real food no matter how its produced, to people who need it. And so, you know, it’s great to be in a position of privilege where you can afford that stuff, but not everybody can.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

No and I mean, I think unfortunately, a lot of people, I think having the benefit of working to any hospital, like you know, we’re seeing people who are so sick, and it’s like, nobody, you know, I’m not seeing a patient with like, oh, this person has, you know, mild case of Type 2 diabetes, it’s like, no, they’re about to have their leg amputated. They have congestive heart failure. They have chronic kidney disease, they have all this stuff. And this person is probably in Medicare or Medicaid, you know, they need help. And like you said, my goal as a nutrition professional. My number one goal is to get you high-quality, high-bioavailable nutrients, and that you can afford. Like if what if you went to that person who’s on Medicaid and said, Hey, if you don’t buy the $10, grass-fed beef, you really shouldn’t get? That would be the dumbest thing I could possibly say, you know. I don’t it. I would say, hey, what can we – what can you afford? Can we get you some canned sardines? Can we get you the Walmart beef? Like? Yeah, so I’m with you, 100% on that. So I and I also agree that, you know, we can have that nuance. We can want everybody to have nutrients. And like you mentioned, iron is a huge one. I didn’t even know until I got in this, you know, the low carb field that, you know, it’s like 50% of children are deficient iron. It’s the number one mineral deficiency worldwide. So I think we need to start getting there. Let’s just give people nutrition, but like, yes, let’s also support people, if you have the money, and you have the privilege, but that shouldn’t mean that if you can’t do that, that you’re not eating the nutrients.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

I know. And I always this is a line that I like to use is that you know, like no doctor would say only eat organic carrots or don’t eat carrots. Like they wouldn’t say that or only eat organic vegetables or don’t eat vegetables. Of course, we all recognize we can advocate for organic farming but still understand that typical broccoli is cheaper and probably still delivers the majority of the nutrients that you get from broccoli, like the average person gets that. But as soon as you start talking about meat in the same exact way, people don’t get that. And, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with people not being comfortable with how animals are factory farmed. And I totally get that too. I’m not advocating for animal abuse. And anyway, but we can want a better food system and still want to feed people healthy food at the same time.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

I agree 1000%. And I feel like the only way we’re going to achieve both, is we have to start eating real whole healthy food. We have to start saying my dollar goes to buy beef. My dollar goes to buy you know, the broccoli. My dollar no longer goes to buy the Cinnamon Toast Crunch, you know. When we start and I think too, there’s just such a disconnect between people understanding just how valuable protein is. And I blame – well, I blame a lot of things. But our RDA for protein are laughably low, you know, this 0.8 grams per kilogram, that you know, those values were based on healthy 18-year-old males just so they didn’t die, not like thriving, growing, whatever. And I’m sure you know, too. Like, it’s like our nutrition guidelines. They’re based apparently for metabolically healthy humans. Well, statistically, only 7% of us are metabolically healthy now. So, you know, I believe that RDA needs to be you know, at least, I mean, it needs to be reviewed for sure. But it likely needs to be doubled. You know, protein is the number one satiating thing. People, when they eat protein, they tend to be more full if you need to lose weight, which is also a lot of people. So nutrient-dense, meaning you know, it’s not just meat is not just protein, it’s the, you know, the vitamins, the B12, the zinc, the folate, all the cofactors, the carnitine, the taurine and all of the things that your body needs to work, it’s like right there in animal protein. And unfortunately, due to propaganda, you know, we’ve convinced people that it’s a bad unhealthy, unethical food, and nothing could be further from the truth. And if anybody’s had an opportunity to travel, and to go somewhere, I was very fortunate when I was 20, I spent eight weeks at a distance running camp in Kenya. And it was quite the experience as a 20-year-old. It was before cell phones and all that stuff. But you know, every day, every morning, we got up and we milked the cow. You know, they didn’t, nobody in the town ate a lot of meat because it was the quote-unquote, too expense like 25 cents a pound, which to them was very expensive. But milk and eggs were huge, hugely important to them, you know, and we still had meat, like once a week, it was a big deal. But to tell – I can’t imagine telling people like you, I know you talk a lot about food sovereignty, you know, like, “Oh, this is bad for you. You shouldn’t be eating meat once a week, and you shouldn’t be eating drinking milk or eating eggs.” Like, that’s the most ridiculous nonsense I’ve ever heard.

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Diana Rodgers, RD  

I just get so excited with another dietitian, like says, basically, I could have just written your script, you know, like I just don’t have a lot of people that agree with me. And that, you know, I often feel very alone. When I’m out there. 

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Well, hit me up. 

Diana Rodgers, RD  

I just wanted to circle back because there was a couple things you said earlier that I just wanted to highlight. And one is we did just did a podcast for anyone who missed – the one we did about Chris Palmer’s work and bipolar disorder. And my guest there that shared her story about her son who had bipolar, you know, that was just a few episodes ago. So you can check that one out. In my nutrition practice, which at the moment, is on a waitlist, but I don’t always advocate, I try to be careful with pushing extreme diets on people. And I do see carnivore as an extreme diet, but there was one person that came to me who really wanted to go carnivore. And we talked about the pros and cons of it, and she was you know, addicted to overeating. And she really felt that she needed no distractions. And she was really, really committed to 100% following something super regimented because she just felt that she needed that. And it completely worked for her. She lost 60 pounds in three months. I mean, it was just incredible. And it’s funny, because when you go to an Overeaters Anonymous meeting, have you been to an Overeaters Anonymous meeting?

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Actually, I had when I was 12. They didn’t we didn’t have like, anorexia support group. So I Yeah. Several years. Yeah.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Well, I observed one when I was becoming a dietitian, and, you know, they strongly advocate for Finding Your Trigger food and abstaining from that, and for the majority of people, and they don’t necessarily dictate a specific diet philosophy for but for the majority of people, it tends to be what they call white foods: ultra-processed foods like bread, pasta, which a lot of people don’t necessarily think are ultra-processed foods, but it’s the same as Cinnamon Toast Crunch, right? And as long as these folks kind of like stayed away from those and had more whole foods, they were able to find a healthy balance, feel full and not feel too triggered to overeat. But the minute they started consuming those ultra-processed foods, it just stimulated – it’s just like the switch flipped in their brain and they just went bananas on whatever that food was, and I think the majority of people, I mean, we’ve never been in a position as humans to have to push food away. There’s no like wild animal out there that’s like, “Oh my God, I’ve had too many acorns today, I need to take it easy on the acorns.” You know, and so it’s very unnatural when you look at evolutionary biology for an animal to have to restrict itself from food, but the reality is, we do have to be careful about that fridge, especially, you know, anyone who’s survived COVID knows that, like, if you were working from home, that fridge, you know… I saw some jokes that like the refrigerator is sentient, right? Like it’s calling your name. And you do have to stop yourself from going there all the time. That’s just the reality of the food environment we live in now.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yes, I mean, you nailed it, our modern food environment has changed dramatically, even from when I was a child, you know, I don’t remember. I mean, processed foods are everywhere, you know, and there’s actually studies of people dealing specifically with binge eating disorder that even images of ultra-processed foods can, you know, cause a release in the brain that makes them crave these foods and it’s like, I was literally trying to check sports on my phone. And like, an image of mac and cheese popped up, you know, like, hey, an ad for it, you’re driving your gas station, there’s the thing for soda, there’s, I went to my, the vet with my dog, and they have a free mocha machine. It’s, literally everywhere as a species we never had that you’re right. And you’re right. Like, when we would like hunt an antelope. It was like, oh, we gotta eat as much as possible. Because that’s, you know, it’s the protein, it’s the fat, it’s the tendons, all the organs. But now it’s like, we have so much access, you know, to these foods too and so being able, you know, you really do have to put some thought into it. And yeah, same, like, when you were talking briefly about the carnivore diet, you know, I did a full carnivore diet for 30 days, just kind of like your person you worked with, like, my health was a mess, my anxiety, and I just felt like, I don’t know, I really wanted to do that. I felt like I needed that. But since you know, I’ve certainly evolved. You know, I always say like, what you should eat, it really depends on your goals and your metabolic health. Because myself as somebody who’s trained for these, you know, this crazy ultra marathons, you know, my goals are very different than maybe somebody who’s dealing with, you know, an eating disorder, or has Type 2 diabetes or just wherever you’re at in your life, because I do think most people can tolerate, you know, some carbohydrate, especially some whole food, carbohydrates just fine. You know, my wife, who just got a stressful job but doesn’t know doesn’t exercise very much eats about 50 grams of carbs a day and is perfectly happy, is fine. You know, we eat some local produce and other things. And you know, I think most people do just fine with that. I don’t think that you know, you have to be full carnivore, I can even argue that there are certain instances, you know, if you’re a pre-menopausal or you know, you’re still having periods that may not be ideal. Certainly, if you’re active, I don’t think it’s ideal.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Yeah. So let’s talk about food insecurity a little bit more. And you know, what it looks like. So, when we started our film, Sacred Cow, we actually started filming with Sarah Hallberg, in Lafayette, Indiana. We were tracking patients of hers, and it ended up – I mean, it’s a very poor community overall. And a lot of her patients were really just struggling with being able to just afford food, period. And the reason we dropped it was because it wasn’t just about eating more meat, it was about social pressures and life stress and access. And we just felt like that was a lot to cover in one film, if we were also going to talk about environment and sustainability and all that kind of stuff. But I do have… I need to start releasing some of the assemblies that we had put together. You know, there was a couple that that are popping out in my head. One was a boy that he also lost about 40 to 60 pounds eating keto, reverses Type 2 diabetes, and he was he was 16 years old. But it was a real huge struggle, because, number one, he didn’t have a mom. So he was living with his dad and his grandfather. His grandfather would bring home doughnuts because he didn’t want to change his diet and like Red Bulls and that kind of stuff. And so their family solution was to lock it in like a locked Tupperware container so to keep him out of it, because he kept going and so not to not eat the doughnuts, but just to lock them away from this boy. 

Michelle Hurn, RD  

So if you’re ever wondering how powerful food addiction is… Geez!

Diana Rodgers, RD  

And then oh, and I wanted to mention that too. I have a story about the food addiction and other dietitians. But then there was another woman who suffered from MS. She was in a wheelchair and she had to go to food pantries, and there just isn’t keto option. There’s not low carb and mean, the options at food pantries are ultra-processed, shelf stable. I mean, milk, eggs, cheese and meat are all perishable and need refrigeration or freezers. And that’s just not always an option in a lot of these food pantries and so she just talked about her struggles with all of that. And we actually have footage of her trying to, you know, go through and put together the medically required meals she needed from public assistance, which was close to impossible.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, yeah, it’s, I mean, you hit on so many good things. Like if you’re if somebody who is trying to go keto, or somebody’s trying to just have low carbs, it can be so hard socially, you know, a lot of family members are like, oh, you know, the so literally grandma and grandpa and dads and see like, Oh, he’s overweight, and this is going to be good for him. But no, I’m not giving up my you know, I can’t. It’s very interesting how powerful once again, sugar addictions are. I mean, I’ve been suspended from the hospital twice. The first time was one woman. She was younger than I was. So she early 30s, severely obese, chronic kidney disease. And when I walked into the room and introduced myself, “Hi, I’m Michelle, I’m the dietitian.” And she looked at me and she said, “I would rather die than give up cake.” And all I said was, “Well, ma’am, you’re on your way.” And she freaked out. She told her nurse and I mean, I went back to my boss and said, “Look, I was literally going off her labs. Her BUN, her creatinine is through the roof. She’s on her way to die.” Like this is not a good situation. And I was told no, no, you can’t… you know, in my opinion, we coddle patients. But that’s a that’s a different story. So anyway, I was excused from the hospital for the rest of the week. But you know what you’re talking about and food pantries actually, I went into where we have four food pantries in my area. And you know, I’ve got, you know, good parents. We used to volunteer as kiddos and when I went to one of our food pantries actually was for lack of a better word kind of jarred. Like one the line for food was like around the block. This is Portland. So it’s pouring rain. There’s I saw lots of young kids with moms waiting in the rain. And you know, I talked to the people beforehand, said my name’s Michelle, I’m interested in doing some work hopefully getting you guys some funds. And you know, you say that they’re like, oh, yeah, come on tour, we’ll show you everything. But their area for meat, it was just like they had one tiny little cooler, you know, and they’re like, Oh, we’re not really getting donations anymore from grocery stores or restaurants just because I think it’s so expensive. But they have lots of beans, rice, peanut butter, cereals, some produce, which I which is great, but that’s significantly less, you know, than everything else. And so, you know, my hope is to help change that. Yeah.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Yeah, just my quick just to slide it in there before we continue with the food pantry thing, but just the dietitians and the denial of food addiction, I actually got in an argument on Instagram, with a dietitian from Purdue, who is a sports dietitian and very firmly said, “There’s no such thing as food addictions. We should never restrict carbs, carbs are required, and anyone restricting anything is wrong.” I don’t know, those were her exact words. But that was her message. And I was livid. And I don’t normally call people out. But I did call her out because I felt that that was really irresponsible. And, you know, maybe that works with college athletes in the four years that she gets these genetically optimized humans to work with, you know. I mean, there’s a lot of athletes that could probably get by for four years on anything, right? Like that’s an easy age, or they’re at the prime of their life and you know, but getting into the real world that is absolutely not okay, advice. And you know, you and I are probably both gonna lose our license from this. But one good thing came out of that and that was Markus Bailey, from the Bangles reached out to me. He went to Purdue and he saw that argument and wants to get involved and you know, also do the same kind of thing trying to get meat to people who need it. So let’s talk about a little bit more about the challenges and food pantry. So we’ve got the situation where there’s a huge need and they’ve got very small refrigerated sections. Was there a frozen section at the food pantry?

Michelle Hurn, RD  

One of the ones I went to did. It had one cooler. It had like one freezer and then like one small cooler and they told me they used to have a second freezer she’s like oh yeah, we have one in the back. We just don’t, we don’t bring it out anymore because we’re not getting… they weren’t getting enough meat and things to put in it. The others did not – the others was just canned goods. So I think it depends kind of on your area if it’s you know, but infrastructure certainly is an issue. You know, it’s just not having enough room to put – actually refrigerated or frozen things. And then you know, I think just the knowledge like I don’t… every person who I’ve ever met that works at a homeless shelter or food bank, they’re all – they have great hearts, they want to help. They’re good people. But it’s often like, we just got to get these people calories, like, doesn’t matter if it’s donut calories or cookie calories, like calories is calories, versus I don’t think they appreciate or understand how vital you know, the protein is. And you know, even some of the, you know, fat and fat soluble vitamins are. So I think there’s a little bit of an education. And of course, they’re just getting the very basic, like nutrition guidelines, mostly carbs. So, yeah, I mean, those, to me, are two of the biggest barriers is like, well, I guess the biggest barrier is just the funds, you know, the funds and the food, getting them there. And you know, if we could flip it, like, can you imagine if all food pantries had like, mostly had meat, and eggs and cheese, and then it was surrounded with produce? And then you know, maybe you had 10% you know, beans, rice, other things? Because right now, it’s the opposite. You know, it’s just mostly processed foods with very, very little produce and other things.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Yeah, I mean, even when you see food drives that happen at schools or grocery stores, it’s canned things.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah. Canned soup, canned, highly processed, lots of salt. You know, that’s other stuff. So, right.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Which is calories, and some people legitimately just need calories, you know, they have a basic need for calories, but we really should be doing better by them.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And kind of like what you’re saying with dietitians, actually, I very rarely argue on social media anymore. But same thing I had another dietitian post, she did a reel saying, you know, the way to cure sugar addiction is to eat more sugar.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Oh, this could have been the same person I was talking to because I believe…

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, maybe it was. I did a reel next to hers saying, you know, just in shock, and she and several others got like out of, you know, out of their mind. But these are people that, like you said, like when you’re… a lot of dietitians are 22 to 24-26-year-old females. They tend to be kind of lean, majority white, you know, just and it’s like, just because you maybe are metabolically healthy, does not mean that this advice is going to work for the majority of humans that are not metabolically healthy. And I think we need we need to extrapolate that. And even I would argue like, yeah, you know, I was physically healthy. Like, if you looked at me in 2019, you would have been like, wow, that’s a lean runner, she looks whatever, maybe even a little too lean at times, but my mental health was in crisis. And just you may be, you may look okay, but the foods you’re eating can also be impacting other areas of your health. Right. So yeah, I hope the future of dietitians kind of wakes up to real health.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Well, so let’s talk a little bit more specifically about what your group is doing. And I’m going to add to I mentioned this ahead of time, that I’m also looking into doing something very similar. And I think every community should be doing this, every single town should be, you know, not just having a canned food drive, but have a fresh meat drive or frozen meat drive or seafood drive. I mean, like, let’s

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah. Because here’s the thing is, I do think there’s a lot of people that want to do good, and you just don’t you don’t know, it’s like, oh, if I donate $5 to the food bank, like where’s it going, or whatever. And so you know, what our group is doing, and our group’s gonna be called The Protein Project. And we are having a very exciting process right now of filing for a 501 C3, which is taking a lot more time than I anticipated. So we’re probably going to start doing some like, you know, GoFundMe or Crowdrise support to get the funds going. But what we’re doing is we’re taking, you know, food pantries, I’m working with Ede Fox and so she is on social media as The Black Carnivore.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Yes, I’ve had her on my show many couple times.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Well, yeah. She’s fantastic. And so because we want to start like okay, we know our food pantries need meat. And so we’re going to be doing a drive to get people turkeys for Christmas, you know, so we’re gonna do like a live stream on Instagram and have experts come on, and we’d love to have you on my live video – on the spot here for 20 or 30 minutes and just talk about protein talk about the importance and raise funds because I feel like everybody can do this in your community because you can actually ask you know, I went to my food pantry and said you know, if we’re gonna cut you a check, can you guarantee that it will go to buy turkeys? You know, I don’t want this to just buy whatever. Oh, yeah, they’re like we can absolutely do that. We have a huge need. And we don’t have you know, we’re not going to be able to buy turkeys for everybody we’re not gonna have the funds. Or you know, you can even you know, if you’re raising money in your community or whatever, you know, you can buy canned salmon or canned sardines. There are so many good sources of protein even that are shelf-stable. So I feel like there’s so many opportunities, and I’ll tell you that the food banks and food pantries are desperate need a protein of high-quality animal protein. 

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Yeah, totally. Well, I think it’s great that you’re working with her. So the name of your project is The Protein Project.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yes. The Protein Project and we’ll have a website and everything you know, right now if you want to learn more.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

We’ll link to that. That’ll be live when the show releases. So, yeah, so we’ll put that in our Instagram handle. And I think you’re right, there are a lot more shelf-stable protein options than people think. And just because it shelf stable or even somewhat processed, it doesn’t mean that it’s less healthy than something that’s fresh. I mean, you can still get B12 and iron from something that shelf stable. And you know, people even think that ground meat is like an ultra processed food. It’s just chopped up steak. It’s a perfectly healthy, wonderful and affordable for a lot of people.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah. I’m a big advocate. You know, my number one goal is to get people meat, specifically beef, you know, we’re going to do turkeys obviously, for the holidays. But I think, you know, I think beef is just one of the most powerful nutrients out there – powerful foods out there, just because it is so nutrient-dense, certainly, you know, organ meats are as well. But if we’re getting, you know, if we’re going to get people healthy, like I’ve just seen so many people reverse disease by really focusing on you know, beef specifically just because it’s so nutrient-dense and fat, you know, when you’re eating those things, you’re going to stabilize your blood sugar, you’re going to be flooded with vitamins and minerals, you’re not going to be hungry, like your you know, your whole life could change just by focusing on nutrient-dense animal protein.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

And I mean, it’s versatile, people like it. I mean, it would be great to be donating canned oysters, but like, I don’t want to eat canned oysters. And so, I mean, there’s certainly, you know, we have to think about like, what is going to be utilized in people’s homes and ground beef is something that most people know what to do with.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, I mean, things like I feel like the things that most people are going to eat and I feel like they cross a lot of different cultures, ground beef, eggs is another one. And you know, and even cheese, I know, some people don’t do dairy, but a lot of different places do dairy. So I think that’s also something you know, children like it’s easy to, you know, add to different dishes. And it provides you know, calcium, it’s Yeah, absolutely. 

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of people say what? Dairy is not paleo or dairy is inflammatory, but it’s like, it actually is a great way for kids to get calcium and kids like milk. And so it’s an okay thing to be telling people that need nutrition that they should drink milk.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

I agree. I absolutely agree. I’m a big fan. And then you go back to people are like, oh, you should only drink it if it’s raw. It’s one thing it’s like, well, that’s great if you have access, and you know what, I’m not telling somebody who doesn’t, that they shouldn’t buy something that’s cheaper and available. When it’s you know, it’s definitely going to provide some sort of nutrition and protein.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Exactly. Well, thank you so much for the work you’re doing and for everything you just said, which just makes me look better because you just repeated everything. And we may get a little bit of pushback on this podcast, but that’s alright. Because I often get pushback on my posts, and I’m ready for it. And you really can’t argue with the bioavailable protein and other nutrients you can get from animal-source foods and the top – I mean, I don’t know if you saw Ty Beals recent research that he came out with, but with the new – it’s not just 2 billion people, it is one in two people across the world have a micronutrient deficiency. And the top ones, like you mentioned, are iron, B12, folate, vitamin D, you know, things largely that we best get through animal-source foods.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I feel like you and I could probably talk for another two hours, but I would that would kind of be how I’d wrap it up is just, I think we have to, as dietitians, start talking about bioavailability, that’s not something that was really hammered home when I was being taught is that you can, I mean, you know, 45% of people can’t even turn the vitamin A in sweet potatoes into usable vitamin A Right? So it’s like you can eat that all day but be vitamin A deficient. Where it’s a form that’s an animal protein, or like liver and things is very as already in the form your body needs. So just getting people – I mean, if we could just get people to get – if we can get more meat to people, more beef and more of the ruminant animals, I think we would start to see an improvement in metabolic health across our country.

Diana Rodgers, RD  

Absolutely. 100%. All right. Well, thank you again, so much for your time. We’re gonna put a link in the show notes. And when we promote this on Instagram, we’ll put a link to your organization, The Protein Project. Thank you for starting it, and happy holidays and best of luck with your campaign.

Michelle Hurn, RD  

Yeah, you as well. Thank you so much.

Diana Rodgers, RD 

Thanks so much for listening to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. If you liked the show, please leave a review on iTunes. And if you’d like to support the work I’m doing on Patreon, please visit sustainabledish.com/join. As a Patreon subscriber, you’ll get access to ad-free podcasts, plus exclusive video podcasts, never before seen interviews, and a discussion community. Go to sustainabledish.com/join, and thank you for your support.

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