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I love discussing meat and protein consumption with other women! My guest today is Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, a functional medicine physician. Dr. Lyon earned a Doctorate in osteopathic medicine and is Board certified in family medicine. She also completed a clinical fellowship in nutritional science and geriatrics. Plus she studied human nutrition during her undergraduate work, focusing on vitamin and mineral metabolism, chronic disease prevention and management, and the physiological effects of diet composition.
Dr. Lyon sees a wide range of patients from those wanting to lose weight to elite military operators seeking optimized performance. While her treatment protocol is different for every individual, one thing she does for everyone is to improve muscle health through Muscle-Centric Medicine®.
A primary tenant of this program is a protein-rich diet that includes animal-sourced foods. During this episode, Dr. Lyon explains the importance of protein in human health. We also chat about:
- Dr. Lyon’s background
- The history of the RDA for protein
- Combating the anti-meat narrative
- Truths about the beef industry
- Protocols for getting enough protein
- Why social media isn’t the best place for transparent conversations
Resources:
Diet for a Small Planet by Francis Moore Lappé
Connect with Dr. Lyon:
Website: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Instagram: @drgabriellelyon
Podcast: The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
Episode Credits:
Thank you to all who’ve made this show possible. Our hosts are Diana Rodgers and James Connelly. Our producer is Emily Soape. And of course, we are grateful for our sponsors, Patreon supporters, and listeners.
If you’re ready to take your support for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable food system to the next level, join my Global Food Justice Alliance community on Patreon. You will have access to ad-free podcasts, exclusive videos, and a discussion community plus so much more. Go to sustainabledish.com/join to support my work.
Quotes:
“We need to first understand that the human biology is incredibly adaptable and while we can do certain dietary patterns and choices over time, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we should.” – Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
“There has never been one randomized controlled trial to show that restricting protein is going to help with longevity.” – Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
“You can still advocate for better agriculture practices, for a more regional decentralized food system, for more organic practices, all of that, while still not being an elitist, and saying that unless people get only grass-fed regenerative beef, they should eat beans and rice, because that is a horrible position.” – Diana Rodgers, RD
“What a lot of people don’t realize is that 50% of our ground beef supply comes from old dairy cows that have already provided milk and cheese.” – Diana Rodgers, RD
Transcript:
Diana Rodgers, RD 00:01
Welcome to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. I’m Diana Rodgers, a real food registered dietitian, author, and sustainability advocate. I co-host this podcast with James Connelly who was a producer on my film Sacred Cow. I also founded the Global Food Justice Alliance an initiative, advocating for the inclusion of animal source foods like meat, dairy, and eggs for a more nutritious, sustainable, and equitable worldwide food system. You can check it out and join me at global food justice.org. Thanks again for listening. And now on to our show.
Diana Rodgers, RD 0:39
Welcome back to the podcast everyone. I am so excited to have Gabrielle, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon with me today. Welcome.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 0:47
Hi, we made it happen. This is amazing.
Diana Rodgers, RD 0:52
Yes, we took a few reschedules I’m so excited. You’ve been so supportive of everything I’ve done. And you are such a strong voice for animal source foods and why meat is important. And it’s great to have a woman and a doctor who is out there doing similar work to me. So how did you get into this? I’d love to just like find out about everyone’s background. But yeah, kind of dig into the meat of the issue,
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 1:23
No pun intended. Well, first of all, thank you for having me, you and I are friends. And I really am careful about the information that I consume because obviously, we are in a world that is inundated with information. And the information that you put out is very important, and I think is a voice of reason in a world that is now over-consuming information. So I just want to start off by saying that. In terms of my background, I’m a physician. And really, I am in a unique position, which I feel very grateful for, in the way that I am trained in Nutritional Sciences. And that is unusual for physicians currently in this space. And just in general, obviously, the reason is it’s really hard to dedicate yourself to medicine. And then also in addition, dedicate yourself to nutrition. The two don’t totally coincide unless I believe you start really early. And I have done professional training in nutrition for seven years, I did my undergraduate in human nutrition, vitamin-mineral metabolism at the University of Illinois. In a very serendipitous nature, I ended up in Dr. Donald Layman’s lab. For those individuals in the space who may or may not be familiar with him. he is the – I don’t want to see grandfather who would kill me right because he’s 70, some years old, – of really aspects of protein metabolism. And most importantly, understanding that there is a central amino acid, which is leucine. You know, we won’t go too much into the science to start but really that the way in which we’ve been thinking about protein is wrong. And in fact, to actually have an optimal impact in the body, it is required to be a meal threshold, which is where animal high-quality animal-based proteins, in my opinion, really set the stage for optimal health. Interestingly, I ended up in his lab very early on in my career, and he’s mentored me, for now, two decades later. And that you know, in a nutshell, yes, then I went so I did time in Nutritional Sciences. And then I did a postdoc at Washington in St. Louis at Sam Klein’s lab. All with this foundation of protein metabolism, protein impact in health and well-being as a clinical physician as opposed to a researcher. I’m only a very subpar, below average researcher, right? Yes, in a nutshell. That’s how I ended up where I am.
Diana Rodgers, RD 3:52
And so can you talk about your current practice right now. You’re based in New York City and your populations that you work with?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 4:01
Absolutely. I am a concierge physician, which means really, I am the person who come to you to get the job done whatever that job is. I interface with patients all over the world. Actually, right now. I used to have a clinic on Fifth Avenue in New York City and then I had one downtown across from the Bowl. Everyone knows like that big bowl statue, but now everything is remote. Unfortunately, you know, I really love seeing people in person for now at the time being you know, I have two very little children. Everything is remote. And I will tell you, I work with a diverse group. And I say that cautiously. Because really it’s anyone from moms, housewives, perimenopause, postmenopausal women who have tried everything to lose weight, have been to 14 other doctors and still failed. So there’s kind of that group and then special operations. My husband is a Navy SEAL, was a Navy SEAL, recently retired, to CEOs, people really in the public eye. Interestingly, they all have one thing in common. They have a mindset that is undeniable, and the fact that they are willing to do what it takes to get the job done, essentially hard-chargers, right, hard-charging in whatever domain in their field of scope.
Diana Rodgers, RD 5:23
So that’s very different than… and that’s kind of how I have worked a lot, too. So when people come to me, and my practice is currently on hold, just because I have been traveling so much, and doing so… I know. are all the time. I know, like,
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 5:40
You are. All the time. Like, “Diana, hey, what are you doing? Wanna like, chat?” You’re like, “No, I mean, in here, I’m in here.”
Diana Rodgers, RD 5:45
But there is a really big difference, I think between someone who just got referred to you and is like going through the motions, especially with nutrition, it’s like, oh, well, you know, I’m not willing to do XY and Z. And I’m like, this is your body? Yeah, this is all you have. And do you want to be around? Especially when people are a little bit older, they’re set in their ways, but I’m like… I just had somebody, I will take a handful of people sometimes if they, you know, really pester me enough, right? So yesterday, I had somebody, and he is extremely unhealthy and eats, you know, cake and cookies every day, pasta every day. And I said, Okay, on a scale of one to 10, how willing are you to change and he said Five. And I asked him if he wants to be around to see his grandkids. And there’s just such a disconnect between, you know, and I’m not used to having a population like that. This was a referral from a friend who told him to come see me. But normally, people who come to me are like, just tell me what to do. And I’ll do it. And those, it’s so rewarding to work with people like that, because they are already, yes. If they’re not going to do what you tell them to do, then why waste anyone’s time, right.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 7:04
And I think that there’s a place and time for all of that. And I think at some point in your career, you really develop, and for any healthcare professional, they really develop a niche. And I think in a large part, there’s a personality match, you know. We cannot discount that there is a relationship formed between provider and patient. And, you know, or provider and client, depending on how an individual works with another individual. And that relationship in and of itself has to be cohesive and built in a place of foundation. And like any relationship, there has to be a very fundamental level, I don’t want to say similar attributes, but certainly similar values. And there’s a place and a need for each and every kind of physician and each and every kind of patient.
Diana Rodgers, RD 7:49
You’re right, you’re right. And I fully admit that I’m a terrible health coach. And I’ve thought about bringing people in who are able to each week coach people and say, Okay, you drink some soda, and you know, and let’s talk about it, but I’m just not, that’s not my personality, I am really good at just telling you what to do. And it’s funny how in school, we didn’t really focus too much on that. It was more on like, Okay, well, what foods? And yeah, of course, I didn’t agree with the education I got, but it was more focused on coming up with the plans and not really, you know, coaching people through the change. And it’s really, you know, I wish I had a master’s in social work or psychology to be able to really change people’s behaviors better. But there are other college nutritionist for example, is someone I started following recently. And she’s really great with mindset and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, anyway, I’m getting down a rabbit hole a little bit. Let’s talk a little bit more about protein because there’s been just so much going on in the media right now with people saying, Oh, well, we get enough protein. And but then, you know, there’s some studies recently coming out saying even when people are getting their quote, unquote, protein requirement, they’re still amino acid deficient. So will you talk about that and quality proteins and bioavailability?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 9:23
Pretty much my favorite topic. So yes, of course, I think we need to first understand that the human biology is incredibly adaptable. And while we can do certain dietary patterns and choices over time, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we should. So I want to really lay the foundation that the human body is incredibly capable. And what we can do isn’t necessarily what we should do. So there I said it and now let’s talk about what our current recommendations are. When we hear about protein we think about well, many of us in this space, think about the RDA, which is the recommended dietary allowance. And that is set at .8 grams per kilogram. We often think about this as the target number. However, this is the minimum number to prevent deficiencies in 97.5% of the population. This number is based from, you know, 80 years ago, nitrogen balance studies. Nitrogen balance studies were really popularized in the 1940s during World War Two when we had young male soldiers overseas, and we had to figure out how do we feed these people. We have millions of people overseas, what do we do? How are we going to feed them? There was initially extrapolation data from animal husbandry. So to kind of circle back to what that means it is. We really didn’t know much. Nutrition is arguably a very young science. It is a hard science, but it is a young science. And from the beginning, when we really thought about nutrition, it was somewhat selfish because it was really about how do we grow and raise animals? Nitrogen balance studies are crude measures of protein. And it doesn’t take into account individual amino acids. Nitrogen is part of the component of protein in which the body needs. These nitrogen balance studies were taken from animals in how do we allow, say, a pig to grow in the cheapest way possible with the most amount of carbohydrates, minimizing the amount of protein so that we can get growth that is favorable in our pockets, right? Like it’s not going to cost that much. So they got a growth number, they then move this over to soldiers, young males, and said, “Okay, well, we kind of know what this is like, and how it’s done in animals. This is what we’re going to do in humans.” And this is really the beginning of the nitrogen balance story, which is where ultimately, we came up with the RDA – not a good strategy. Again, it is a very gross measure. And in fact, what I find really fascinating and some of this stuff actually is in my book that it comes out in a year, but I’ve been going back and looking at the history. And do you know how much the average soldier weighed, the average male soldier, take a guess?
Diana Rodgers, RD 12:29
Well, I know the ideal body weight for men, which the RDA is, like set upon is 155 pounds. So I don’t know,
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 12:41
I asked a very smart person. The average weight of a male when these numbers were somewhat implemented, the average male is 143 pounds.
Diana Rodgers, RD 12:53
Okay. Wow,
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 12:55
The average female was 120 pounds, 121 pounds. That is not what it’s like today. Also, that was kind of the RDA, the that was the minimum amount to prevent deficiencies. That male was 143 pounds, which I don’t know, I weighed more than that when I was pregnant. And a woman 121 pounds, I am five foot one, I’m 115 pounds. I’m a very tiny human. Right, the idea that that is what the average female was, even if it’s a you know, maybe they’re probably taller than me. But it’s not, it’s not a lot. So again, this is the minimum amount to prevent deficiencies. I also want to point out and I’m just going to take a sidestep here is that during the times of war, there was something implemented called rationing and rationing was a way of really saying here is just the amount of food that you are allowed, because we need it, we cannot produce it. And that rationing number was 3000 calories a day, which is a huge amount. In addition, the majority of protein was sent overseas to soldiers. Because at that time, they saw the incredible value. And in fact, the average soldier was given one pound of meat a day, at least.
Diana Rodgers, RD 14:14
Interesting
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 14:15
And there’s some data to suggest I’ve seen some reports net from 1940. It was like 1942, I can’t remember that guy off the top of my head, but he was a physician, and he was reporting that when a soldier was injured, they would increase the protein intake to 250 grams a day. And they saw a 50% increase in the speed of their healing.
Diana Rodgers, RD 14:35
You know, that’s what blows my mind. There’s this organization Health Care Without Harm, and they work a lot on improving food in hospitals. And I went to a presentation where they proudly showed how they’re reducing animal source food intake because of its emissions. And I raised my hand, I’m sitting in the front, and I’m like, okay, but burn victims require three times the baseline, we’ve got you know, anyone who’s stressed or recovering from illness, their protein needs go up and you’re touting that, you’re going to replace animal source proteins with a poor quality protein.
(Ad for Patreon) Diana Rodgers, RD 15:20
Ready to take your support for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable food system to the next level? Join my Global Food Justice Alliance community on Patreon and have access to ad-free podcasts, exclusive videos, and a discussion community plus so much more. Go to sustainable dish.com/join to support my work, and thank you.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 15:41
And these are fundamental flaws at you know, these nitrogen balance studies, again, bring up the minimum requirement to prevent deficiencies .8 grams per kilogram is the minimum requirement. And actually, there’s data that’s been out there for quite some time. And as we know, it takes a lot of time to change policy. And there’s the National Academy of Science, and then there’s the WHO there’s all these organizations that try to make recommendations that are applicable to all of the world and protein is a luxury for most people, aside from, you know, the US and perhaps Canada, but everywhere else in the world, protein is a luxury. And what we see you know, I’m a geriatrician by training. And really what we see and this is in the literature is that the RDA is not sufficient for an aging population, for an injured person. And really, at the minimum, you’re looking at 1.2 grams per kilogram, yeah, 1.2 grams to 1.6 grams per kilogram, and arguably, those numbers are going to be higher. And we will get to those points and again, the 24-hour protein… So if I were to – if you were to take nothing away from this podcast, other than how much protein I should get, I would say we must not look at the RDA as a maximum. You look at Vitamin C. Vitamin C is 60 milligrams a day for the RDA. There is not one person I have ever met that looks at that number and says, “You know what? I’m sick. I’m not feeling well. But the bit the RDA says I should only have 60 milligrams of Vitamin C.” There was not one person that does that or even thinks that way. However, there is this huge dichotomy when we think about protein. It’s not there for carbohydrates, right? The RDA for carbohydrate is set at 130 grams, the average American is eating 300 grams, yet there is this weird relationship that we have with dietary protein, which is arguably the most important macronutrient to be able to have survivability, right? All-cause morbidity, mortality, your ability to survive any illness, really is dependent on the quality of your muscle mass, which is dependent on the quality of your dietary protein. So from a personal and professional standpoint, I recommend everybody one gram per pound ideal body weight, which is certainly on the higher end, and can be argued in the literature. Right? I can feel good about making that recommendation.
Diana Rodgers, RD 18:21
I feel great when I eat that much. And when I recommend that much to somebody, they freak out.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 18:29
Yeah, it’s, um, I think that we’re getting there. I think that we eventually – you, me, and a few of our other colleagues in this space. I think as we kind of strip away the layers, I feel that you and I, right, we are on the same team and we are up against a lot. We are up against the mouse with the microphone. We are up against the 2% of the population that is absolutely against animal-based products yet, this is the group that perhaps own food technology and media and it really is unfortunate and some of the furthest things from overall health and wellness. Can you be vegetarian or vegan and still get adequate protein? Yes, again, if you are just talking about a macronutrient but that does discount creatine, taurine, iron, the bioavailable nutrients that perhaps are much more difficult to obtain from plant sources of food. I am by no means against plants. I am by every means against dishonest conversations about Nutritional Sciences, especially when, as a practicing physician during my fellowship in geriatrics, there is a point of no return. You know?
Diana Rodgers, RD 19:45
Yes and which makes me crazy when people talk about longevity and how we need protein restriction for longevity. And I’m like, well, is the goal to just lay in bed for the rest of your life or is the goal to you know, so like what do you mean?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 20:00
Yeah, that’s a very myopic conversation. So there has never been one randomized controlled trial to show that restricting protein is going to help with longevity. You cannot correlate mice or rodent models as an endpoint, right? They’re living in sterile environments, you’re looking at one pathway. And then you’re then – not you, but individuals are making massive claims about then longevity, when, by the way, how are we defining longevity? Are we defining – Is it six weeks, six hours longer? That it is a very nebulous conversation that is spoken about as if it’s in truth. Right.
Diana Rodgers, RD 20:38
Right. I know.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 20:40
And dangerous.
Diana Rodgers, RD 20:41
Totally dangerous. And I think, you know, it really comes down to guilt. Right? I think a lot of people just, they feel badly about how animals are raised. And so they don’t. They don’t want people eating that volume of protein that you and I understand…
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 21:00
Can we talk about that? Because this is also your wheelhouse. I was under the impression that the majority of animals were actually, you know, on pasture and typically, there’s I think 750,000 ranchers compared to some conventional raised cattle, which also spend the majority of their life on…
Diana Rodgers, RD 21:19
Yeah, let’s talk about it. So, when you’re in the grocery store, and you see the pork, the chicken and the beef wins nutritionally, and you know that, and maybe our listeners don’t know that. But beef…
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 21:34
Oh, they know. If they’re following you they know.
Diana Rodgers, RD 21:36
Well, I’ll just add that, you know, beef is about I’d say about 30% more nutrient-dense than chicken.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 21:44
Yeah. And are you meaning that from the iron component and zinc perhaps I’d have to look at the breakdown. Creatine probably.
Diana Rodgers, RD 21:51
Yeah. I mean, and chicken does have like if people are all bent out of shape about the omegas and stuff, chicken and poultry and pork have so much Omega six compared to beef. If you just look at the just straight numbers, but then when we look at environmentally and animal welfare-wise beef when typical beef wins too. So typical beef, animal welfare-wise, compared to chicken and pork, which spend their entire lives indoors.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 22:23
That’s interesting.
Diana Rodgers, RD 22:24
In cramped conditions in you know, with horrible air quality, and they eat 100% grains. Cattle, 85% of the beef cattle population right now in the United States is grazing on land we can’t crop.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 22:40
That’s really important. So you’re talking about marginal land?
Diana Rodgers, RD 22:43
Yes.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 22:44
What you just said is incredibly important. The idea that there’s all this land that we can be using is totally inaccurate. Majority of land, two thirds of land is marginal land, meaning it actually can only support grazing cattle and then 1/3 of land is what croppable?
Diana Rodgers, RD 23:04
Yeah, so this pasture land range land is really only valuable as grazing land. And actually, there was a study not too long ago that came out showing the ecosystem services of grazing animals is over $1,000 per head of cattle for what they’re giving back to the ecosystem, the biodiversity, the water cycles, the soil health, like we have to be grazing that land. You can’t just have it fallow. And no, we can’t rewild it because we don’t have the wild predators in order to manage the flow. If anyone’s seen my movie, Sacred Cow, they know that, you know. We talked about this predator/prey relationship. You can’t just have a field with a bunch of animals just kind of like grazing whatever portion they want, they need to be moving around. And so we don’t have that luxury anymore of these large swaths of land for bison or deer to just be wild going around. And you know, here in eastern Massachusetts, we have a huge wild deer issue. Long Island has a huge – I grew up on Long Island – massive, massive deer issue there. No one wants hunting, which is a huge problem. So these deer are going around, they’re eating all of the habitat for ground-nesting birds, they’re causing car accidents. They’re sick. They’re overgrazing, so we can’t just like rewild stuff. There’s humans have unfortunately taken over a lot of spots where and we’ve also gotten rid of predators anyway. So even a typical beef cow that’s or cattle, steer that’s finished on a feedlot spends the majority of its life grazing and being managed by a family rancher. Then they’re either finished on pasture or they’re finished in a feedlot. Their typical length of time on a feedlot is about three months in The United States. When they’re at a feedlot, a large portion of what they’re eating is crop residue, like the corn stalks left over from the ethanol industry, which actually gets calculated towards crops grown for livestock, by the way.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 25:15
Which is mind-blowing.
Diana Rodgers, RD 25:16
Yes. So they’re eating the leftover grains from the distilling process. Like all the leftover barley from brewing beer, things like that get fed to cattle, it has no other use to us. Other than that – like chickens can’t eat it, pigs can’t eat it, – it’s going to sit in a landfill and emit methane, and actually be worse for the environment than if we just turned it into protein by feeding it to cattle. So the amount of grain that a typical steer eats, when you do that, there’s something called the feed conversion ratio, the FCR. It’s 2.5 pounds of corn, largely corn grain, to one pound of beef, that over the life of that animal, right? That is pretty amazing. That means that you can take something nutrient-poor and basically upcycle it through a cow and turn it into protein. And so when I, when you talk to anybody, you can argue that right? Like you talk to, you know, people who say, Oh, we should just eat the crops directly. It’s so inefficient to feed it to livestock. 2.5 pounds of corn is much less valuable to a human than one pound of beef.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 26:33
Yeah, we are certainly up against a narrative that I have never seen before. Right. I have been studying nutrition for the last two decades. And I would say my mentor, Dr. Donald Layman would also say that while these issues have always existed, in terms of you know, there’s Francis, I think her name is Francis Moore Lappe who wrote what was it?
Diana Rodgers, RD 26:56
Diet for a Small Planet? Yep.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 26:57
Diet for a Small Planet. So there were… there’s always been some interface between an anti-animal narrative and listen, there’s nothing wrong with not believing that it is okay to utilize animals. But we must, as a society understand and separate into these transparent conversations. So for example, if you are in the camp that you don’t believe eating animals is the right moral thing to do. I say you and I can completely appreciate that. And we would never ask my mother-in-law, who’s Buddhist, she will not eat, she will not eat animal products, she will not eat cattle, you know, any kind of red meat, she’s wonderful. No problem, then the other hand is to try to move the needle in this direction of more people going plant-based because they are being told – unsuspecting individuals being told that meat is bad for the planet, that meat is bad for your body that I don’t know? Pick up a 5 million others – that it’s responsible for global warming. I don’t know. You name it, right. It’s gonna cause cancer. This whole slew of non-evidence-based information to try to push an individual to make a choice which they believe that they are making for their health, which actually is incredibly inaccurate. That is what we are up against. And unfortunately, with social media, while amazing, in many regards, it has completely been weaponized. Education and Information is now weaponized in a way that it doesn’t matter if it’s true. There is not a discernment of studies, it is, you know, people will look at epidemiology data or rodent models or animal models and say, well, because I read it here, then it must translate. So what’s happened is, there’s quite a bit of confusion. And it doesn’t mean that we have the exact answers for everything. But I would say that health endpoints are very clear. The more muscle mass the healthier, I shouldn’t say more, but the healthier your muscle mass is, the better your survivability. The way in which you consume protein is a non-negotiable in my opinion, and really sets you up for optimal aging and in my opinion, optimal longevity right? This one gram per pound ideal body weight given in divided doses, right. The average American eats the majority of their protein at one meal of the day typically dinner and ultimately as we know there is a meal threshold response to amino acids, right. Plant and animal amino acid ratios are different and animal-based products provide the amino acids essential amino acids in the appropriate dosage that Humans need, right. A leaf isn’t going to build your bones, I don’t care how much leaves you’re going to eat. I mean, that’s a lot, I don’t even think you can eat enough leaves to be able to build your bone density, probably not. However, we do know that you could eat 30 to 50 grams of a high-quality animal-based product like beef, bison, whatever. And we know that you’re going to reach an amino acid threshold, which is going to subsequently help your muscle mass over time, which is amazing. And I think that, you know, from a practical aspect, understanding that if you eat two meals, depending on your protocol, or your strategy – two meals a day that are optimized for dietary protein, reaching up to 50-55 grams of protein, and those two meals and maybe a smaller snack, you’re going to be able to maintain the muscle that you have, assuming you aren’t in some kind of highly catabolic state or illness or injury, right. So that’s a great strategy. Another strategy, another protocol that I use in my clinic, will be a even distribution over the day, it is not necessarily superior to say to again, it really depends not necessarily superior to a different strategy, what I call a protein pulsing strategy. But what it does do is if individuals have any kind of issues with blood sugar regulation, or issues with kind of emotional eating, and they’re just a bit obsessive about food, having an even distribution of protein really does allow for blood sugar maintenance. So those are just two strategies that I think any of your listener, you’re a listener could take away and execute appropriately.
Diana Rodgers, RD 31:41
So when I just want to caveat the conversation we just had about grocery store meat, and you know, the beauties of upcycling and everything. People will often accuse me of like shilling for Big Beef. And I just want to introduce a slight bit of nuance to that. Only because, you know, you can still advocate for better agriculture practices for a more regional decentralized food system for more organic practices, all of that, while still not being an elitist, and saying that unless people get only grass-fed regenerative beef, they should eat beans and rice, because that is a horrible position.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 32:28
And also the majority, like you said, so well also but you know, in the same hand, the majority of cattle is not produced from is not typically mass-produced.
Diana Rodgers, RD 32:39
Well, the majority… it’s just that our cattle that are grazing right now, you know, the majority of them in the US will end up on a feedlot. But And here’s another thing a lot of people don’t realize is that 50% of our ground beef supply comes from old dairy cows that have already provided milk and cheese and all this stuff.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 33:00
I had no idea right? I had no idea. Yeah, that’s really interesting.
Diana Rodgers, RD 33:05
But if we are to truly care about moving forward about, you know, this idea of like regenerative health, you know, I was just on a call the other day with the folks at Rodale Institute. So they’re hosting a conference on regenerative health and I recommended they call you. I’m going to make email intros, because they partnered with the Plantrician Movement. T Colin Campbell, you know, this other group with Ethan Brown from Beyond Meat is on their board, someone who wants to end all livestock.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 33:38
This is a terrible strategy. This is a terrible and you know what? Fine, if you’re going to do that, then I should come on. I’ll have Don Layman. Come on, we have to have a balanced conversation there.
Diana Rodgers, RD 33:47
Right, exactly. And they said, “Well, you know, we just want to partner with everyone who wants to be regenerative.” And I said, “Well, yes, but we also have to, if we only end up agreeing that Well, I guess this small percentage of meat is okay – this only grass-fed regenerative beef is okay, but everyone else who can’t get that they clearly need to be, you know, eating rice and beans.”
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 34:10
Can I ask you a question? Can I ask a question? I know this is not my podcast, but I really have a great I have a question I loved to have answered is that: cattle in and of itself is regenerative. Right? I mean, is it?
Diana Rodgers, RD 34:22
When they’re grazing and providing ecosystem services, it is superior to any type of cropping. So even continue even the worst type of grazing practice with overgrazing or that is still going to be better than plowing up the soil and using chemical extractive ag methods.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 34:46
That in and of itself makes a lot of sense. What you’re saying is that whether that perhaps in every industry practices are not perfect. But what I’m hearing you say is that even the worst practices of conventional beef are still number one providing incredible nutrients. And number two, not nearly as bad as mono-cropping.
Diana Rodgers, RD 35:08
Yes.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 35:10
So I suppose we really need to question the nut. I mean, it is amazing when things are repeated enough people believe them as truth.
Diana Rodgers, RD 35:20
Yes. And that’s why there’s so much focus right now on carbon emissions, because that’s really the only argument that these alt meat companies can win is emissions. And so they’ll say, “Well, we have less emissions because cattle burp methane,” right. But when cattle burp methane and my listeners are familiar with the graphic that I have showing the whole biogenic cycle, and how it’s part of a cycle. It’s like as if, when cattle drink water, it goes into oblivion, like they urinate it out. It’s part of the water cycle, you know, it’s not just like, vanished and gone into the ether. But with fossil fuel emissions, we’re extracting ancient dead animals, basically, fossil fuels, and we’re pumping it directly into the atmosphere, and there’s not a balanced equation there. So it’s not getting… it’s not really… there’s no reuptake for that. Where when cattle burp out methane that is re-upped taken (re-up took?) by the grass and photosynthesis and can actually increase so there’s just so much nuance and I think that that’s another thing that’s really missing from social media. And you know, when I make one post on, water or one post on protein, then you know, it’s this Whack a Mole game that is just so impossible to win.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 36:45
So I heard something from you know, I just launched a podcast myself the Dr. Gabrielle Lyon show, I apologize for the name – terrible, but okay. And I just had Dr. Tracy Anthony on, I don’t know if you know who she is.
Diana Rodgers, RD 36:57
I don’t know who she is
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 36:58
But she is a world-class scientist in the academic sphere. And she actually was in Don’s lab, Dr. Donald Layman, 30 years ago, and she helped put the story of Leucine together. And she is, you know, she’s incredible, right? A highly published amazing individual. But anyway, one of the things she said, I said, “Hey, listen, you know, you’re not really on social media, you don’t really have an Instagram, and you’re not really on Twitter.” And she goes, “You know what, Gabrielle? I have one of two choices. One, I can spend my time responding to Twitter, or Instagram posts, or two, really leaving a legacy of incredibly important work, providing new information that has the potential to change the world.” And I was like, “Whoa, yeah, I cannot do both.” So my time, effort, and energy are spent in a way that will really move the needle.
Diana Rodgers, RD 38:04
Yeah, that’s well…
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 38:06
So don’t get… you know, I struggle with the same thing. I post one thing, right, there’s 2000 characters that you could post, I wrote something, you know, we did some thing about Ancel Keys. And this guy’s a PhD, I’m sure he’s a great dude was, you know, saying about how we totally missed it. And I’m thinking myself, Don was like, sitting at the table with this guy. Right? This is, you know, but I don’t have the bandwidth to go back and say, “Hey, Don, you know, we really should bring him on and talk about this,” when Don was there. You know, and so, there’s only so much bandwidth. I think you and I and other people in our space have like Robb, our mutual friend, Robb Wolf. There’s not a ton of bandwidth to be able to keep up with all the nonsense, the best that we can do is try to educate in a meaningful way, and be open to conversations.
Diana Rodgers, RD 38:58
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I feel like I could talk to you for another whole hour and I apologize, but I have to cut it short.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 39:06
This will be a short episode. I know we’ll do it again. There’ll will be another episode. It will be amazing.
Diana Rodgers, RD 39:10
Yeah. We’ll do it again. Because I would love to dig more into satiety to the other micronutrients in animal source foods that are to get, you know, helping women embrace more protein because there we women have been so shunned from forever, right. They were the last to get the meat. So there’s just so much I would love to dig in with you. So thank you so much for your time. How can people find you?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon 39:39
Yep. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I have a new show the Dr. Gabrielle Lyon show which you will obviously be one of my guests, hoping you’ll be in studio. I have a newsletter and they can sign up on my website Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. It’s a free newsletter I always try to, similar to yours, I pick a paper or anything that I’m involved in and somewhat active on Twitter, but certainly YouTube and Spotify. What is it? Apple podcast? Yes, and Instagram, that kind of thing. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
Diana Rodgers, RD 40:13
Thank you have a wonderful day.
Diana Rodgers, RD 48:38
Thank you so much for tuning in to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a review on iTunes and check out my website at sustainable dish.com where you can sign up for my newsletter, catch up on the latest blog post, and check out my courses and favorite products. See you next time and thanks again for listening
