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Folks may remember Sustainable Dish Episode 167 with Dr. Tony Hampton where we connected over our criticism of The Food Compass and the benefits of a meat-inclusive diet. Dr. Hampton has a podcast called Protecting Your N.E.S.T. and I was so honored when he invited me to be a guest. The conversation was so good that I just had to share.
Dr. Hampton is a board-certified Family Medicine and Obesity Medicine physician with a focus on helping patients reverse the root cause of disease.
To illustrate his health framework, Dr. Hampton uses two acronyms:
N.E.S.T. which stands for
N: Nutrition (what and when you eat)
E: Exercise
S: Less stress/more sleep
T: How you Think/less Trauma
And R.O.P.E. which is
R: Relationships
O: Organism (avoiding the bad/adding the good)
P: Pollutants
E: Emotions/Life Experiences
You’ll hear him reference these throughout our talk. Both are great mnemonic devices for keeping health fundamentals top of mind.
Tune in to find out more about:
- How I ended up living on a farm
- How life experiences allow you to see the world differently
- Regenerative farming versus monocropping
- Correcting the misinformation about the impact of livestock on climate change
- How a high protein diet can improve health
- What the GFJA is all about
- The detrimental effects of being nutrient-deficient during childhood
- My health focus for the next 12 months
If you like this episode, be sure to check out Protecting Your N.E.S.T. to hear some great experts and perspectives from people with a wide range of life experiences.
Resources:
Sustainable Dish Episode 167: Dr. Tony Hampton
Dietitian’s Dilemma by Michelle Hurn, RD
PNAS study: Nutritional and greenhouse gas impacts of removing animals from US agriculture
Sustainable Dish Episode 179: Ty Beal, PhD
Fatima Cody Stanford, MD, MPH, MPA
Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend
Connect with Dr. Tony Hampton:
Website: Doctor Tony Hampton
Instagram: @drtonyhampton
LinkedIn: Tony Hampton, MD, MBA, CPE
Facebook: Tony Hampton, MD, MBA, CPE
Twitter: @drtonyhampton
YouTube: Dr. Tony Hampton
Podcast: Protecting Your N.E.S.T
Episode Credits:
Thank you to all who’ve made this show possible. Our hosts are Diana Rodgers and James Connelly. Our producer is Emily Soape. And of course, we are grateful for our sponsors, Patreon supporters, and listeners.
If you’re ready to take your support for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable food system to the next level, join my Global Food Justice Alliance community on Patreon. You will have access to ad-free podcasts, exclusive videos, and a discussion community plus so much more. Go to sustainabledish.com/join to support my work.
Today’s podcast is sponsored by Alec’s Ice Cream, the first and only verified regenerative, organic ice cream and the best-tasting ice cream I have ever had. They use 100% A2 dairy so even for those of you who are sensitive to dairy, you may find that Alec’s is a treat for your tastebuds and your insides. Check it out by going to sustainabledish.com/icecream and use code DIANA for 20% off your order.
Quotes:
“It’s this disconnection and uncomfortableness with the idea of death and seeing it as the end of a line instead of part of those circle because you can’t have life without death.” – Diana Rodgers, RD
“Regenerative is the new buzzword, but it’s really any type of farming that is trying to improve the ecosystem it’s in.” – Diana Rodgers, RD
“These cows can eat things like the hulls from the pea protein industry, the leftover grains from the alcohol and ethanol industries, things that we have no other use for, cows can eat them and turn it into protein. That’s pretty great.” – Diana Rodgers, RD
“We should have options and if you want to make something, give people options and explain why you think that’s beneficial, then give people that choice, but we should never legislate that.” – Dr. Tony Hampton
Transcript:
Diana Rodgers, RD 0:01
Welcome to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. I’m Diana Rodgers, a real food registered dietitian, author, and sustainability advocate. I co-host this podcast with James Connelly who was a producer on my film Sacred Cow. I also founded the Global Food Justice Alliance an initiative, advocating for the inclusion of animal source foods like meat, dairy, and eggs for a more nutritious, sustainable, and equitable worldwide food system. You can check it out and join me at global food justice.org. Thanks again for listening. And now on to our show.
Diana Rodgers, RD 0:39
Hey, everyone, Diana here, and as you might know, I’ve been traveling a ton and doing a lot of speaking for the Global Food Justice Alliance. So for today, I’m releasing a show I recorded for another expert which I thought you’d enjoy. To join my mission at global food justice, please visit sustainabledish.com/join, and you’ll get access to early ad-free podcasts, the full video versions, exclusive downloads, and a community discussion group. So head over to sustainable dish.com/join and support the work I’m doing to push back against the anti-meat narrative. Thanks so much and enjoy the show.
(Alec’s Ice Cream Ad) Diana Rodgers, RD 1:20
Today’s podcast is sponsored by Alec’s Ice Cream, the first and only verified regenerative, organic ice cream and the best-tasting ice cream I have ever had. They use 100% A2 dairy so even for those of you who are sensitive to dairy, you may find that Alec’s is a treat for your tastebuds and your insides. So if you want an out-of-this-world, delicious, and creamy ice cream, that’s also earth and gut-friendly, give this stuff a try. My favorite flavor is the Matcha Chocolate Chip but they also have a bunch of other delicious options. Check it out by going to sustainabledish.com/icecream and use code DIANA for 20% off your order. That’s sustainabledish.com/icecream and you can get 20% off with my name D-I-A-N-A so check it out and now on to the show.
Dr. Tony Hampton 2:17
Welcome to the Protecting Your NEST podcast. There are many people who have the perception that raising cows for food is not the most sustainable way to feed the population. While there are others who feel that it’s the most sustainable way to feed the population. Providing clarity to this critical question is very important. And it’s foundational if we are to find common ground between these two perspectives today, I want to have a conversation with someone who has thought about this question and who I feel is a voice that we all need to hear. Today’s guest is Diana Rodgers. Diana is a registered dietitian and a sustainability advocate. She’s an author who runs a clinical nutrition practice, hosts The Sustainable Dish podcast, and has served in an advisory role of a number of numerous nutrition and agriculture organizations including Whole30, Animal Welfare Approved, and Savory Institute. She speaks internationally about the intersection of optimal human health and regenerative agriculture. Diana is co-author of Sacred Cow: The Case for Better Meat and the director and producer of the companion film Sacred Cow. Her new initiative, the Global Food Justice Alliance advocates for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable, worldwide food system. And with that, I am thrilled to have you, Diana, on the Protecting Your NEST podcast.
Diana Rodgers, RD 3:49
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so happy to be here. And it was so nice to have you on my show. So thanks for returning the favor.
Dr. Tony Hampton 3:57
Absolutely. And definitely happy to have another conversation. I don’t think we can have enough conversations about it. And again, we have to have voices on both sides, so that we can kind of put that information together and make the best decisions moving forward. So thank you so much. And I do want to talk a little bit about your documentary. I had a chance to review it again, right before our conversation. So really enjoyed it. And I do believe that it provided some clarity about the benefits of regenerative farming. But I’m a city boy and many people who’s listening to us are not necessarily growing up or living on a farm. I get my food from the local grocer. So I know you have lived in the past on a farm and I think it’s helpful to get a little perspective, so talk a little bit about what it was like for you to live on a farm. I don’t know if you grew up on a farm and you just did a temporarily – just talk a little bit about that experience.
Diana Rodgers, RD 4:59
Yeah. Ah, I did not grow up on a farm. Actually, I grew up on Long Island. And when I was in college, actually my undergrad, I studied art education and art history, and then just kind of ended up living married to a farmer and living on a farm for the last 18 years. And it was just a wonderful way… he didn’t grow up as a farmer, either. I met him in college. He was an English major, but environmentalist and didn’t know quite what to do with himself. And then we both had corporate jobs. And I was okay with it. I didn’t mind working in an office, but he was miserable, like working in a cube. And, you know, making profits for Hewlett Packard and all the big companies and wanting to do something, you know, that he felt was making a bigger difference in the world. And so he learned about these CSA farms. So basically, this idea that you can take, and specifically, we want it to be in a more suburban slash urban environment, exposing people to agriculture, and it’s a great way to save land in suburban areas, and keep it in farming, especially now, it’s just so hard to get farmland. And so saving it and running a farm is a really great way to do it. So people join, they’re members of the farm, you have this really robust community of people that are subscribers, and they get their dividends in vegetables, and meats too. Some CSAs are just vegetables, but we did vegetables and meat and the meat part came later. We first started with vegetables, and then became very clear that if you want to raise vegetables, you actually have to have animals. You have to have their manure. What are you going to do with these, you know, if you’ve ever had a garden, zucchinis grow really fast and really big. And so you can either compost them, or you can feed them to a chicken or a pig and turn that into meat. And so it’s the most sustainable way to raise food is to have both animals and plants at the same time. And so, as I became a dietitian, I was also helping to work on the farm and doing marketing and sort of engaging with the public. He was growing the food. We raised our kids that way. My son is going to be going to college to study agriculture. He’s always lived on a farm, he’s never had another life. And it’s just been… he has such a rich understanding of the cycle of life like we’ve never had to have a lot of conversations with him because he’s seen it. He’s seen a lot. You know, you never quite know what you’re going to come home to. You know, the goats and the sheep would wander into the road sometimes and so I’d get calls from the police, like, “Hey, lady, your ducks, or sheep or whatever, are in the middle of the street again.” You know, I also think that a lot of people just aren’t exposed to people who grow food. And so I think it’s just so important to be around that, you know. We did work for share programs. We had a lot of international immigrants that really wanted to participate in it. And so, for example, at the end of the year, you have all these laying hens. And as the light goes down, the chickens stop laying as often. Like they’re very light-sensitive with their egg production. And so instead of feeding them all winter long, and in Massachusetts, which is a lot of grain, we sell the chickens, and we found some great populations from Guatemala, and from Kenya and Tunisia. These guys would come to the farm and process the chickens, and they were so grateful to have these egg-laying chickens. They said it tasted like real food, you know, not like the chicken you get in the grocery store, which tastes like nothing, you know. And so it was just, it was a really rich life there. And I’m no longer on the farm. But I still really advocate for sustainable food systems and really push back against this idea that a meat-free diet is healthier because you and I’ve talked about that it is not metabolically just for so many reasons. It is just not ideal. And especially people in a position of privilege pushing these agendas on, you know, for example, Mayor Adams in New York City pushing a Vegan Friday to New York City school kids when they already have Meatless Mondays, right, you know, that’s flanking their food-insecure weekend. We know 70% of those kids are low-income. So they need the nutrients in the school lunch. Like, they actually need it. And so pulling meat away from them makes absolutely no sense at all. So that’s what I’ve really been pushing lately is this idea that it is actually quite inequitable to be removing meat off the plates of people who need it the most.
Dr. Tony Hampton 10:07
Absolutely. And you share it a lot. And as you talked it reminded me of the E in my ROPE acronym: life experiences. And man, I think about your kids, and they’re getting a little different experience. Being more urban, I think about like, the immigrants you’re exposed to and get a chance to learn about their culture and why they are or aren’t doing what they’re doing in terms of where they’re living. And I think it just, allows us to see the world differently. And I think it may be… it’s all of these life experiences that have really laid the foundation for you to see the world a different way. And I think, hopefully, this podcast and these conversations will, and everybody’s not gonna have the same experience. But if we can kind of live through each other’s experience, and have that kind of perspective, I think that’s really important. So I really, I felt like, you know, you’re taking us on a journey as we talk about these topics. And my mind’s there. And I love it. And, man, I tell you, I haven’t you know, I haven’t bought like a half a cow and done a freezer thing yet, but there are things that hopefully will be in the future that will help get me closer to some of that. And that’s why I love your documentary because it kind of it really tried to bring us to the communities that were being, you know, shown in that documentary. And I just really love Sacred Cow for that. But I also remember one of the first scenes in the beginning, where the Belgian Butcher was preparing the meat and my mouth watered, I think as he was kind of preparing it, right. And it was like, “Oh my God, look at this stuff.” It was just delicious. I know I am at least an omnivore, maybe a carnivore? I don’t know. But who knows. Right? So and I know it’s interesting because my father-in-law who I’ll be hanging with in a little bit, he did work in a meat processing factory and I’ve talked to people who have done that. I think Michelle Hurn who is a dietitian who wrote a book as well, Dietitian’s Dilemma. She talked about working in that environment. So to talk a little bit about the value the having the life experience, of having, you know, done things like working in a food processing plant, you know, how important is that for people so that they can better understand and see the world through a different lens? Yes,
Diana Rodgers, RD 12:40
Yes, I mean, just so many ways. I mean, they’re just… the sunlight, the physical labor of it, being outside. You’re so in tune with the weather, and natural cycles, and just understanding how things grow, appreciating death. Now, that’s something that, you know, we really shy away from a lot in our culture. You know, people don’t have wills, they don’t have death plans. But when you’re on a farm, and you’re raising animals for meat, you have this reverence for these animals. You do love – it’s possible to love them and to want to give them a good death, and to really use all the pieces of that animal respectfully when you eat it. And then, unfortunately, we tend to farm people out to die, right? We put them in nursing homes and we don’t want to think about it. We don’t want to talk about it. We prolong death for people unnecessarily. But we also are so afraid of the idea that animals are also dying for us. And I think that’s really the crux of where this meat-free movement is coming from. It’s this disconnection and uncomfortableness with the idea of death and seeing it as the end of a line instead of part of those circle because you can’t have life without death. You need the nutrients and meat they feed us and they keep us going. And it’s a very natural, beautiful process.
Dr. Tony Hampton 14:10
Yeah and I – because I watch the animal channels, often one of the most calming, although it’s interesting because when I watch it with my father-in-law, it seems to calm us even though we’re seeing things that animals are having to eat each other. Right? But it’s still like it feels different than maybe how we think about humans. But I’ll tell you when I watched these programs, I realized this is what normal life is, and when you – and I think one of the scenes in the movie even talked about how the hunter and you know the animals that are hunting other animals kind of keep them moving along. And if they don’t keep moving along, that’s going to be a problem. They can’t just stay in graze in one spot. So they need movement to make this whole cycle work. And I think again, the whole point is that we need the life experience to have heard that, to understand it. And my hope is that if we have people in front of us who can pause for a moment and hear a different perspective, maybe just maybe they will say, “You know what I hadn’t thought about that. And maybe there is another way, maybe there’s a way we can combine my perspective with this other perspective and come up with common ground.” That’s kind of, I’ve always been an optimistic person. And my hope is that one day, we’ll get closer and closer to that. So I really hope that happens. I do want to touch on this idea about regenerative farming because one of the things in the documentary, Sacred Cow was this idea that one of the families were talking about, oh, we actually made money. And I’m thinking why don’t all farmers make money? You know? So, apparently not. So what was said was that the regenerative farming practices were profitable while some of the farmers using chemical sprays and fungicides and things like that they weren’t profitable. And I think most people would have never thought, you know, that was true. So, you know, how is it that raising animals without chemicals is – I know it seems more ethical, you know, for us and for the animals, but be more profitable. How is that even possible?
Diana Rodgers, RD 16:27
Right. Well, fertilizers and chemicals cost a lot of money. And so if you can get your land really productive so that the soil is healthy, and it’s growing grass that’s much denser and thicker and healthier for the animals. And there are certain ways of managing it, like you said, with moving the animals. So not keeping them just in one spot, but constantly moving them around, so that they’re not overgrazing or under grazing certain sections, you end up with healthier animals because they’re having a wider variety of food intake. And you also have healthier land because it has a chance to rest and not get overgrazed. And so that’s what happens. If you imagine the Serengeti and Africa like you were saying, with the predator/prey, so you know, you don’t have a herd of zebras just hanging out by the watering hole all day long, because they’re gonna just attract all the lions and all, you know, from National Geographic, like, that’s a dumb place to hang out. Drink your water, and you get out of there. And so it’s the same idea with farming, right? We have really gotten so away from understanding nature’s cycles, right? So you don’t want to have all your grazing animals on the same piece of land all the time. It’s unhealthy for the animals, it’s unhealthy for the land, you need to keep it moving. And you can do that without lions, you can do that just with electric fencing. And humans can actually be the ones to control the populations and harvest the animals so that we can eat them. And so it’s a very… it’s mimicking nature. And that’s why a lot of people like in these sort of, quote, unquote, like ancestral health mindset really gravitate to these ideas more easily. People that understand we should be eating a little bit more closer to what humans evolved to eat, instead of all this modern stuff in the grocery stores. We should be sleeping a lot more, we should be outside a lot more, you know, all those ideas that are so common with, you know, people that have really thought about, okay, well, how did humans evolve living? And how can we try to mimic that as much as possible to optimize our health? Same deal with farming.
Dr. Tony Hampton 18:50
Yeah. And it’s, it’s so basic. My wife said something that was cute. And she said, “You need to focus on making sure everybody understands a KISS, right?” And what she meant by that is keep it sweet and simple. So I think, is actually pretty simple to understand how to be healthy. You mentioned sleep, I mean, you know, get outside. So I will be even though I’m in Chicago, and is still not quite right yet, right. I don’t have to dress like you are dressed for those who are watching this video as opposed to listening. But man, when the weather’s right, I’ll be outside. There’s something about the sun. There’s something about being in nature, hearing the squirrels, you know, and I don’t hear chickens, but I hear squirrels and birds and things like that. And that’s really important. Another thing I liked about or like about you, and your documentary is you remind me of myself. You have the heart of a teacher. So when I watch that they’re documentaries that are made that seem to have an agenda and I think all documentaries have a purpose, you know. But it was the heart of a teacher. Right? So you did the best you could with the team you work with to say we have to teach. And I hope my podcast does that. I’m happy you’re doing that because I think we have to teach, teach, teach. And then the more we teach, teach, teach, right, rather, if we agree or disagree, I think that’s going to be important. So one of the things I want to mention, and I want you to talk about is regenerative farming, monoculture farming. So as teachers, we want to make sure you’ve already suggested that in your comments, but let’s be clear about regenerative farming versus monoculture farming just kind of explain so my audience understands that this the difference.
Diana Rodgers, RD 20:41
Yeah. So basically, anyone who’s flown over Chicago, you know, at once you get a little bit outside of the city, you look down at the United States, it’s a whole bunch of squares and circles. Those aren’t natural. They’re not supposed to be there. Those are things that humans made, right. And the problem with them is that it’s miles and miles and miles of just one thing, right? So one crop, like let’s say corn – it’s corn, wheat and soybeans are the main crops that we’re growing. And by the way, the reason why the Midwest is so fertile is not because farmers were raising corn and spraying glyphosate and fertilizers, it’s because there were bison that were grazing that land for millions and millions of years, pooping on it, you know, building that soil that was from grazing animals, not from cropping, right. So we started cropping this, we annihilate whatever was living there. So, you know, in the Midwest, it was largely either forest or grasslands. Get rid of the entire ecosystem because you have to make way for corn, only corn, right? So you got to plow everything up. When you’re plowing it, it actually, there’s a whole ecosystem of life underground that you are disturbing in wrecking by just driving your plow and releasing tons of carbon by the way, and then you have to make it nice and flat, you plant all your corn, but then you have to make sure nothing else grows there. So you have to spray all kinds of chemicals to make sure that no other crop but corn comes up. You don’t want any insects eating that corn, and so you have to kill any type of natural insect that might come by. So now you’ve not only ruined the plant diversity, but you’ve ruined the insect diversity. And that has major ramifications because now birds don’t have anything to eat. So we’ve lost so many birds in monocropping is the main reason why we’ve lost all our migratory birds because they have no food on their flights down. And so actually, the Audubon Society has been working with ranchers to try to get more healthy ranching happening so that the birds actually have their native food to eat on their way down. Anyhow, so you have all these chemicals now that are unnatural to the environment. They’re poisons. When the rain comes, the soil is dry and powdery. The rain comes in, it just washes all that soil with all the chemicals into our waterways. And that’s why we have this massive dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. It’s because all of the Midwest is chemical agriculture that is getting washed into rivers and feeding directly into the Gulf of Mexico. So now we’ve got polluted waterways, we’ve got ruined fish, you know, the water, so cloudy from all the soil that’s gone in it and all the chemicals, all the fish, the things that eat the fish, the trees that need the nutrients from that river, you’ve just wrecked everything. And it’s all in the name of making largely ultra-processed foods that are also killing our bodies as well, but making large profits for the ultra-processed food industries. And so these farms have just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger, more and more chemicals. We’ve got GMO crops which can withstand even more spraying of chemicals, right and largely untested. And so the difference between that type of agriculture and regenerative agriculture is that regenerative or you know, sustainable, organic. And regenerative is like the new buzzword, but it’s really, you know, any type of farming that is trying to improve the ecosystem it’s in to try to work you know, leaving little wild bits so that birds have places to go. Making sure there’s not toxic chemicals sprayed everywhere, incorporating animals with the vegetables, letting some fields, if you’re going to plant vegetables, go empty for a little while to let the soil kind of heal itself in between main the plantings. That’s the type of agriculture we need more of. And it can be more profitable, especially if you’re cutting out all the big agribusiness. So I mean, wholesaling to them is really where the farmers are losing money. So these programs like CSA farms are doing really well for farmers because they cut out the middleman and you can buy your food directly from the farmer and give them the money, and also help them, you know, offset some of the environmental benefits, that they’re not getting reimbursed for. These large companies that are polluting the environment are not having to pay the price for the environmental destruction that they’re doing.
Dr. Tony Hampton 25:42
Interesting. And in this really, what we would have thought would have been the plan at the beginning. And when you’re planning on how to feed the population. I understand, you know, when things are urgent, and when President has to legislate something and say, “We gotta make sure the farmers are okay, so we’re gonna subsidize, you know, corn, soy,” and I understand why that would happen. But then we need to pause and say, “What’s best long term?” And it seems like that wasn’t ever done that, you know, this holistic, what’s the big picture? How do we sustain this approach and I kind of love in the documentary how that was shown, like, you know, that the section of the documentary where they showed, you know, water, falling on different types of land, and how with the regenerative land, there was moisture there. And with the non-regenerative land, it just didn’t get through. It was just dry and what can live in that if there’s no moisture? So I think, again, it was the heart of a teacher, as you put that you presented that to us, I wish I could have just had my notebook and took notes. So I again, appreciate the approach and that’s a life experience that I appreciate having. In fact, I’m going to… my wife was kind of fussing at me. I said I gotta talk to Diana so I have to watch it. She said I want to watch it with you and I was like, well, you know, we can’t watch. So we’re gonna watch it again together, just to make sure she gets her experience as well. Now, one of the drivers of our decisions and our belief systems is, again, our life experiences. And one of the things that we’ve believed over the years because of what we’ve heard is that cow poop is worse for the environment. And way worse source of emissions to the end impacting our ozone layer, which is very interesting that a factory and a car would be better than cow poop. It just logically, that doesn’t make sense. But I have seen not to be named documentaries that suggest that very strongly. And so I just want to provide a little clarity around that issue around cow poop and that belief system that’s really harming the environment.
Diana Rodgers, RD 27:59
Totally, yes. And so when you look at the impact that livestock overall has on our greenhouse gas emissions, it is so small to begin with compared to transportation, energy production, and the fueling of our economy of everyone wanting to buy everything they want all the time and have next day delivery, right. I mean, that’s the problem. But there’s a lot of people that would like cows to be the big problem because then it lets them not be the focus of the issue. Right. So it’s almost 80% of the greenhouse gas emissions coming from transportation, energy, and industry. Okay. So in the US, cows, it’s actually their belches that people are complaining about the most. And it’s because when they eat grass and things we can’t digest and turn it into protein, which is a pretty magical thing that they can do. They, in their rumen, there’s bacteria that it’s breaking down. And methane is a byproduct of that process. Now, a lot of the stuff that they’re eating actually would sit in a pile and emit methane as it broke down at a dump. And so these cows can eat things like the hulls from the pea protein industry, the leftover grains from the alcohol and ethanol industries, like things that we have no other use for, cows can eat them and turn it into protein. That’s pretty great.
Dr. Tony Hampton 29:33
That’s amazing.
Diana Rodgers, RD 29:34
And so when the methane from the cows goes up into the atmosphere, it lasts about 10 years, and then it’s broken into CO2 and H2O. So H2O is water, and it becomes part of the rain cycle. It’s not going anywhere. It’s not. It’s just part of the rain cycle. The CO2 gets taken up by the plants in photosynthesis. They release O2 which is oxygen which we need to breathe And then the C is the carbon and the carbon becomes the plant, becomes the roots, and is actually fed down to the micro organisms underground, which are eating those little sugars, the carbon and exchanging that which they’re getting from the roots for nutrients that the plant needs to live. It’s like this symbiotic relationship that the roots of the grass has with all the living things underground there, like going in mining, minerals, and all that kind of stuff. And carbon can actually get sequestered in the ground from this process. And so it is a completely – it’s a circle. It’s not like just cows are emitting methane and so we must eliminate cows, which is the problem with people making decisions, who don’t really understand agriculture or nutrition when the nutritional impacts of what would happen. So there was a study that was published in PNAS. I can get you the link that looked at what would happen if we eliminated all animal-source foods from the US diet. They found that greenhouse gas emissions would only go down about two and a half percent. But overall calories would go up because we need to seek protein. And if you’re not going to get it from meat, then you’re going to have to get it from plants, and it’s a…
Dr. Tony Hampton 31:18
You gotta eat a lot.
Diana Rodgers, RD 31:18
A lot more calories, yes. And carbohydrate intake would go way up, and nutrient deficiencies would go way, way up. So we would see more B12, we would see more calcium deficiencies and essential fatty acids. And so it is a net bad thing to get rid of livestock. The other piece of this is that we don’t have more methane-emitting grazing animals today than we did before we annihilated the bison and all the other wild animals that were in North America. So we’ve just replaced the bison and all the other wild grazing animals with cattle. And if we manage them properly, and move them and everything, we can produce the most ideal food for humans, largely on land that doesn’t need to compete with cropland. We can still raise crops, but we can do it in a more sustainable way.
Dr. Tony Hampton 32:13
I love it. You know, going back to the Animal Channel, right? Yeah, I’m watching the apes, right. And with their big bellies, and you know, just kind of hanging out and I don’t remember how many hours of the day they were eating, but it was most of the hours of the day. I’m a busy guy. I don’t have time to eat. I don’t have it. Even if I had their exact digestive system, as is the case for the cows. I don’t know how many hours they eat all day, chilling all the time. All the time. I’ve never seen a cow not chewing, right? Yeah. So it’s, I don’t have time for that. And again, shout out to anybody, because when I was a vegetarian, I certainly didn’t have to eat that much, but I definitely had to eat often, because I got hungry. And it just wasn’t sustainable for me personally, so and there are patients that have, that are doing quite well with a plant-based diet, but most of my patients don’t. So for those who have developed the type of system or have the type of system where it works. Well, I think that’s great. But I do agree that is I feel much better when I eat animals. And, you know, again, that’s why I feel like I’m a carnivore most days most of the time. So and speaking of carnivores, I had a chance to talk to Shawn Baker literally the week we’re recording this. He invited me to come to his channel. And I wanted to come to just touch base about Vinnie Tortarich’s documentary, Beyond Impossible. And of course, some of the things we chatted about was from your documentary. And one of the questions that we touched on was this, you know, this wider question. And it’s just a simple question about, you know, you’re being told that the, we’re going to use all the water as we raise cattle in a way that’s not sustainable. So I do want to just briefly, I know you kind of touched on a little bit of minutes, let’s dive a little deeper into this idea of are we using all the water that we need because we’re raising cattle?
Diana Rodgers, RD 34:21
Yeah, I mean, definitely. Meatless Mondays likes to – they have this graphic that I critique in all my presentations where they show 10 bathtubs – 10 bathtubs full of water. For every burger that you eat, you’re wasting 10 bathtubs full of water. It’s absolutely not true at all. So the deal with the water is that most of the water that they’re blaming cows for consuming is water that’s in grass that they’re eating. So most vegetables and plants are largely water like 90% water. People don’t really know that and so that grass is going to be there, whether the cow is eating it or not. And so that’s the water that they’re blaming the cows on it’s like rainwater that is going to fall. So it’s like saying, “Well, you walking around outside, if the rains falling on your head, you’re wasting that water away.” So no water is just falling, you know. But that’s the kind of manipulation that people are doing with these numbers. And it’s really, really unfair to be blaming people’s burgers for water. I mean, cows urinate too, and that they don’t take that into account as well. So and just to back up one second, because I was metabolically really broken before I changed my diet and started… I was close to vegetarian and I thought about food all the time. Like debilitatingly, like I remember being in college and like eggplant parm swirling over the professor’s head. I couldn’t even pay attention because all I could think about was where am I going to eat next? What am I going to eat next to these ridiculous food cravings that I had all the time. And after I switched to higher protein, lower processed food, lower carb type diet, dinner for me now is just whatever vegetable and meat I have in the fridge and I’m fine. And I can go hours and hours, I can skip lunch. I mean, I used to get so sweaty and tunnel vision and zero concentration if I went for more than like two hours without eating. And so I was not diabetic. I was not obese. But I was a metabolic mess and just the liberation from my food cravings and being able to go about my day and not having to have a purse full of granola bars before mealtime. What my life went from like black and white to color. So…
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Dr. Tony Hampton 37:21
It’s interesting, even our recording time, it’s you know, 4pm, my time, central, and before my wife left to get her hair done, you know, she said this is what’s here. Because I worked from home today. This is what’s here to eat. Right? And it was basically just some grilled chicken, right? Yeah, I did eat that before we talked. But that’s let’s see, I didn’t think about the grilled chicken before I ate it. The only reason I really ate it because it was kind of around the time I normally have lunch. I usually do lunch and dinner, right? I wasn’t hungry. When I ate it, I felt normal after I ate it, didn’t feel like tired. And I – it’s just not… And then my mental clarity is where it needs to be for this conversation. I was doing – I had a meeting and some computer work before this conversation after my clinic. And I guess what I’m getting at is, this resonates with me because I don’t… food, it’s not this thing I have to think about. When I was you know, when I was a plant person, I did think about food often. And I really got tired of having to, you know, in the middle of my clinic run to the bathroom all the time. I hate to say, you know, being honest, I just – y’all this fiber and stuff that has to find its way out of your body, right. And when you eat protein, and fat, you pretty much you know, use it and there’s not a lot of waste created. So it’s just, there’s so many things. All I really want for our society is to, maybe I’m naive, but if we can remove all of these agendas, and just be scientists, you know, and just, and we can debate the science, we can debate the quality of the science, but we can’t twist things to favor an agenda when our purpose and goal should be to make a healthy population, you know. So I just really, maybe I’m again, being altruistic and you know, but I just want to live in a world where I can have a conversation, and we’re looking at science and we comment on it and look at it for what it is and that’s what I want. So I want to shift a little bit to quality of food. Certainly, Vinny talked about that in his documentary. It was talked about in yours in terms of the quality of nutrients. You suggested that again with the comments around New York and you know, is that a better quality food and I really believe that animal source food is the highest quality from a nutrient perspective. Even in my you know, nutrition and functional medicine training it’s hard to compete with a steak, it’s just hard, you know,
Diana Rodgers, RD 40:02
It’s any steak too. It doesn’t have to be perfect grass-fed. You know, I always encourage people to just get the meat, get the best meat you can buy, like, you know. There’s good environmental reasons to purchase regenerative meat. But it’s a very small percentage of the meat that’s out there. And the overall benefits you’re gonna get from just getting some ground beef, you know, and Shawn Baker and I have talked about this too, just getting some meat or some liver or some chicken from the store, even if it’s not perfect organic, grass-fed, whatever, is still so much better for you than all the alternatives out there.
Dr. Tony Hampton 40:45
Yeah, it’s and you don’t have to, you know, I had a patient yesterday talking about their child, who was, you know, plant-based, and doing okay, but did sometimes struggle, you know, with the supplements they needed to take, you know, just not sure you need to take a lot of supplements, if you’re eating steak, you see what I’m saying? So, and this misinformation, that if you eat that way, you’re gonna have nutrient deficiencies. And I just don’t think you know, that’s just not really true. So I just really hope that again, we can get the message out that yes, this way of eating is not only more nutrient-rich, but thankfully, we’re starting to get some organizations to, you know, say it’s okay to eat this way, it’s not going to cause a heart attack. Saturated fat is not going to kill you. And I think the more we get that message out, that’ll really help. Because I think a lot of times we do feel like we’re standing on the rooftop by ourselves, you know, sharing this message. So I think we’re making progress it’s just kind of slow. And I just don’t want to live in a world where we have, you know, to avoid meat when it’s not really harming us. So another thing I want to touch on, again, you invited me to be on the Sustainable Dish podcast, we talked a little bit about the New York thing and all of that good stuff. And I think that was… I think it was an index that we talked about that talked about
Diana Rodgers, RD 42:13
The Food Compass out of Tufts.
Dr. Tony Hampton 42:15
The Food Compass. So talk a little bit about that, because we talked a little bit of certain foods, you know, got better scores than the foods you would expect. So just anything you reflect back on that conversation.
Diana Rodgers, RD 42:29
So I actually had a chance to present at a conference with Ty Beal who’s been really vocal, might make a great guest for your show actually, if you’ve ever… I can connect with him. But he actually did a really cool study where he looked at the top nutrient deficiencies in the world. And then which foods best meet those nutrient deficiencies and guess what, it’s animal source foods. It’s shellfish. It’s liver. It’s meat and dark leafy greens, also for some folate, but largely most of the other nutrients are all from animal source foods. And he was one of the people that was most critical of this Food Compass Study. So, I live up the street from Tufts and from Harvard, and these two schools are among the most vocal when it comes to nutrition policy. Walter Willett…
Dr. Tony Hampton 43:23
Walter. Walter Willett, I learned about him.
Diana Rodgers, RD 43:27
Yes. And I actually interviewed him for my documentary and had a pretty amazing soundbite from him. I couldn’t believe it. It was funny. Even during the interview, I interviewed him at the School of Public Health at Harvard, and we’re in a conference room with a portrait of him on the wall. And we’ve got the camera behind me. I’m interviewing him, we’re right focused. And I actually had set up a camera on the windowsill, watching both of us with the portrait in between just in case he got up and walked out of the interview. But the problem is you have these academic people who have spent their whole career saying one thing, you know, looking at the same study over and over and over again and just publishing paper after paper after paper. That’s not true science. They’re just securing their ideology and reinforcing it and then training other people to do the same thing. And these schools are funded by ultra-processed food companies, even though they claim that they’re not they are. The Barilla pasta is one of the major funders of the Harvard School of Public Health. This Food Compass Study that came out of Tufts was absolutely ridiculous. It set weird criteria for food, it had to be low fat, it had to be I don’t even remember what the criteria was, but it ended up where Lucky Charms got a higher score than an egg and egg substitute got a higher score than actual eggs because whatever cholesterol, saturated fat or something like that, and so meat ended up being in the lowest category. And you know, M&Ms was higher than meat.
Dr. Tony Hampton 43:38
I mean, right? Because it’s low fat. Right? That’s crazy. Yeah. Like, pause and be logical for a moment.
Diana Rodgers, RD 45:03
And I don’t know how they thought that nobody would say anything. Right? Yeah. But of course, I’m in Twitter with a bunch of people that you know, and we’re, like, How did this even happen? Yeah, so they need to be called out. You can’t have these food ratings based on weird metrics. We need some common sense. And we need to return to just logic when it comes to eating and like, Does this make sense or not? You know?
Dr. Tony Hampton 45:49
Yeah, well, I do think that again, we have to push back a little bit. And if we could just remove sponsorship for a moment, is it really that bad to evolve? So even if my career, I mean, I was a vegetarian, vegan, so you know, for about eight years. My patients still come in and when I say I eat steak, they look at me, like what? So but I had to evolve. And I was okay with evolving. So is it really that bad to evolve? If you take the sponsorship out, I understand that’s going to bias people. But I just think I did have speaking of Harvard, I did have a guest on my podcast after Fatima, Cody, I think, Stanford, she is, you know, well-known obesity doc. And I knew when I asked her to question about dietary patterns, she was very politically correct. She knows I’m low carb. And she, you know, she talked about whole foods. But she did talk about the importance of grains and fruits and vegetables. And, again, not to demonize those things, but to say that you can kind of sense that there’s some Harvard bias in her messaging. And not that she doesn’t believe everything she’s saying, I’m just saying…
Diana Rodgers, RD 47:07
It’s hard to unlearn to like, if you learn something the one way, you know, I was really happy that I became a dietitian after I was already converted to this way of eating because and I actually have a very good friend who was a chemist at Harvard, actually, that I was able to check in with and say, do you is this right? They said this, and he was helping me decode some of the information, you know, as I was learning it from these teachers, but if I had become a dietitian in my 20s, and just blindly, you know, I’m a good student. I wanted to do well. In class, I sit in the front row, I study hard. But I’m so glad I waited until my mid-30s when I knew differently. And then I was raising my hand. Like, I was like that I don’t think that this is accurate. You know, I was like the biggest nightmare in that classes. But I also just had to check off the boxes because unfortunately,
Dr. Tony Hampton 48:04
You have to pass the test.
Diana Rodgers, RD 48:06
You gotta pass the test to get that RD, right. But now, you know, as long as I can show evidence for it. I’m in private practice, I don’t have to work in an environment where I’m forced to give the standard information. And actually, my preceptor when I did my dietetic internship at a hospital in the Boston area, my boss was on Weight Watchers, and she was watching me eat my lunches and stuff. And she’s like, how do you do that? It’s not like that. That would be like a million points for me. And, you know, and I just sort of told her, you know, and she is now one of the leaders of Whole30. And I blew her mind. And I actually just connected with her the other day, and it blew her mind that there was a different way to do it. And it doesn’t have to be like Weight Watchers,
Dr. Tony Hampton 49:04
But that’s the whole point. And that’s why I have respect for Dr. Fatima Cody at Harvard. Because she, the way she expressed her preference, just like we have a preference. It was very respectful. It was uh, you know, wasn’t confrontational. And I think that’s where we’re trying to go with this. Because then that’s kind of like the next quick question I want to ask you is this idea of, we have vegan on one end? Yeah. And then we have, you know, we have our guy at Harvard. And then we have the…
Diana Rodgers, RD 49:35
Shawn Baker against Walter Willett, who would win?
Dr. Tony Hampton 49:40
Right? Yeah, let’s go there.
Diana Rodgers, RD 49:44
Well, you know, I did ask Walter Willett. I was at a conference and I did ask him what he thought of Dr. Sarah Hallberg’s work, you know, if he’s so against meat, and he said, Well, I think a plant-based keto-type diet is okay. And when I was walking through the halls of Harvard, there were a bunch of papers on the wall of vegan keto.
Dr. Tony Hampton 50:07
Oh, there you go. So there’s something there at least, something there. Yeah, I mean, even seeing the word keto in that environment is amazing. So, and even here in the American Heart Association, say they don’t say keto in their position statement on March 1, about, you know, diabetes and heart disease, but it did say, you know, very low carb and very low carb. So we know what that means. So, we’re getting some movement with organizations that would never say that word. And, again, that’s gonna allow us to sit at the table with our peers and say, “Hey, this is what the new science is saying. Let’s talk about it.” And then but I think the bigger message for me is, there’s no one way to do this, as you’ve just figured that it’s okay to live in a world where we have multiple options, which is one of the things I appreciate about these organizations. They say, here are five things, five diets you can consider, right? The key is that we don’t want to look at one and say that’s, you know, that’s a bad diet. Never do that when you don’t have any science to support that statement. So I think that’s awesome. I do want to kind of wrap up with a couple of questions. One is, you know, how you know how you’re going to take care of yourself over the next 12 months? Always got to ask that question. But the first question before, that is you know, the Global Food Justice Alliance, right. And I know you’re about nutrition and sustainability, and I really love equitable, because in the communities I serve, and even in your documentary because a lot of times you see these documentaries, you don’t see people of color, but you had that in your documentary, and you went over and saw cultures and what the struggle would look like for them. That’s not something we talk about. And we have to think about the whole world as we make these decisions. So let’s talk a little bit about what your… what are you going to be doing with this organization moving forward? What’s your big idea agenda?
Diana Rodgers, RD 52:06
Yeah, so the Global Food Justice Alliance is an organization that I started. It’s a nonprofit organization. And the whole mission is to really push back against this idea that everybody needs to be plant-based, especially from the food equity perspective. There are a lot of people that need the nutrients in meat that don’t have a Whole Foods and a supplement shop right around the corner. I mean, to do a properly planned meat-free diet, you need a large variety of fresh fruits and vegetables. You need a lot of education, you need a lot of cooking skill, and you need a ton of supplements.
Dr. Tony Hampton 52:43
That’s right. Yeah.
Diana Rodgers, RD 52:44
So LA, Chicago, Boston, New York. You know, there are people who have the time and money, and education to pull it off. And the digestive system too. I don’t but some people do have the digestive system to do it. But there are many places in the world where that’s just not an option at all. You know, in half the countries in the world, women can’t own land, but they can own livestock. And so having a flock of chickens or some goats is actually hugely independent for them financially and nutritionally for their children. And we know in that first 1000 days, if kids get the right nutrition, they’re set up for a much healthier life. The rates of stunting and malnutrition in countries where we don’t see a lot of meat consumption, like India. I’ve worked with Dr. Sylvia Karpagam. I don’t know if you’ve ever come across her name. Oh, she’s fantastic. She really fights against what’s going on in India right now with the school systems. They’ve got a vegan group that’s been hired out by the government that is making all schools like even in poor Muslim areas vegan, denying these starving malnourished children of healthy lunches. And so when we look at this in a global perspective, and this whole idea that everybody’s eating too much meat, and we all need to reduce it, while we have Norwegian billionaires flying around the world telling everybody how great they feel and how clear their skin is from being vegan. It is largely a privileged position that is absolutely not okay, so I think it’s totally fine if someone personally chooses not to eat meat for whatever reason. There are certain meats that I don’t like to eat so I get it, but I would never deny somebody else who needed that nutrition, the right to choose that food.
Dr. Tony Hampton 54:43
Yeah, I mean, I’m okay with having options like at my kids school at Wash U they have a vegan section. But I don’t want a Meatless Monday and a Vegan Friday and we don’t have options. We should have options and if you want to make something, give people options and explain why you think that’s beneficial, then give people that choice, but we should never legislate that. And I think that’s not good.
Diana Rodgers, RD 55:09
So especially Mayor Adams in New York, I mean, because if you think about what are the most popular foods that kids eat, right? It’s burgers, chicken nuggets, and like hotdogs and a Subway sandwich, right? If you tell them that meat is bad, they’re not going to go to a Sweet Green and get an $18 kale salad with chickpeas on it, they’re just going to go to Subway and get a meat-free piece of bread. So it’s absolutely harmful. And…
Dr. Tony Hampton 55:38
And it’s not just nutrient-poor, it’s…
Diana Rodgers, RD 55:39
Unethical
Dr. Tony Hampton 55:39
It’s unethical. Because you know, when I made my, you know, sub sandwich warning video recently, it was more of a low-carb video, but the footlong vegetarian was 88 carbs, right? So from a low carb diets perspective, my patients can’t tolerate, you know, divided by four, are you talking about what, 22-23 teaspoons of sugar in a vegetarian sub. So now you’re not getting and then you have to eat a whole lot of vegetables, as we suggested to get adequate nutrients, and you’re eating all of these carbs. So if you’re at risk for metabolic dysfunction, which is 80% of the US population, then you’re and that’s why babies are overweight and obese because they’re not being given the right information. You don’t have to eat a lot of what I ate for lunch today, that you know that grilled chicken is one a lot, but it was certainly enough to get the job done. So this is very interesting, very helpful. And I really appreciate it. I just hope somebody who had not heard your voice, had not seen your documentary, was able to walk away from this conversation with some perspective and able to question things and so before we kind of officially wrap up, let’s talk a little bit about how we’re going to keep you healthy so we can keep spreading this message. So you know, NEST and ROPE nutrition, exercise, less stress, more sleep, how we think recovering from trauma, that ROPE relationships, avoiding harmful organisms and pollutants, like the stuff they’re putting on our plants, right. And then you know, our life experience just service and our emotions need to be protected. Where will you Diana, put her focus over the next year?
Diana Rodgers, RD 57:22
Well, that’s a great question. So moving off the farm and leaving that and in the middle of COVID. My cortisol was so high. I mean, I was wearing a Levels CGM. And my glucose was super high off not much, right. So trauma is like a really big deal. I put on weight, and I did not change how I ate. And I think that it’s, you know, there’s a lot of comments about how I look, when I was on the Joe Rogan podcast, which I think was really unfair because I wasn’t there to talk about how to be super skinny, I was talking about the health of meat. So I’m excited that I have a ton of travel coming up. I’m going to be in a different country every single month between now and December, talking about all this stuff going to Brazil, UK, New Zealand, Australia. And so while I’m excited for all of that, I also have really ramped up my self-care. So I am unapologetic about my sleep, I have really gotten into Pilates. And that feels really good. I do a ton of walking, listening to books on tape. And I’m just starting to say no a lot more often to a lot of requests. And so I’m just much more protective of my time and who I spend time with than I ever have been in my life. And it’s just what I need to be doing right now. And it seems to really be helping a lot.
Dr. Tony Hampton 58:58
Well, I hope you don’t feel guilty. One of the books I recommend to my patient is Boundaries by Henry Cloud. So if you feel guilty about saying no, get the idea of that while you’re traveling, and you will learn that saying no doesn’t just serve you, it’s a service to people you’re saying no to. So I think that’s a great option for that. And I do also agree about sleep. It’s hard to even when I think about my NEST and ROPE acronym, it’s hard to say what’s the most important, right? What I do know is that try not to get sleep for a day or two and see what happens. So if you can actually fast for a while, but try not to get enough sleep, things just fall apart. So I do agree that finding time to get your circadian rhythm in order is going to be important. So as we really wrap up this talk I just mentioned, you know how people can connect with you. Maybe get involved to support the work you’re doing.
Diana Rodgers, RD 59:54
Yeah, thank you. So I’m most active on social media on Instagram and I have @sustainabledish on Instagram, where I post every day, and also the Global Food Justice has its own Instagram account. And then my website is Sustainable Dish. And then I have another website globalfoodjustice.org. And then the film and book has their own website called sacred cow.info. And the book can be found on Amazon: Sacred Cow, I have a couple of cookbooks I’ve written also. And the film is available on Amazon Prime and in a lot of countries on iTunes, so people can check it out there. And that’s largely focused on meat. And this meat, anti-meat agenda is not going away. So that’s what all these conferences are for is right pushing back, pushing back, pushing back.
Dr. Tony Hampton 1:00:49
Yeah. And it’s okay, we just need to again, balanced the discussion. And I just hope it’s a discussion. It’s not a fight. And that’s why the work you’re doing is so valuable. So thank you so much for spending a little time with me today, and looking forward to the work we can do in the future. So thank you so much.
Diana Rodgers, RD 1:01:07
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Tony Hampton 1:01:09
No problem. So as we wrap up today, guys, for those who are listening and or watching today, we learned to look at the world through the lens of a sustainability expert who’s on a mission through the work she is doing with the Global Food Justice Alliance to help make sure our food is more nutritious, more sustainable, and of course, equitable, which really speaks to my heart, because we need to make sure good foods are available to everybody. And although she is doing a great job leading us, she will need our help to fulfill her vision. So if you liked what you heard today, and it resonates with you consider learning more by doing your part to educate others. You can do that by watching that wonderful documentary, the Sacred Cow, reading her book, you can share this episode, or you can just support the work that she’s doing. So no matter what path you choose, I am so optimistic as we continue to share the possibilities of regenerative farming, if we can use that word sustainable farming, that you know that more and more people will adopt that approach so we can have a more sustainable approach to raising the animals that we may consume at some points that I thank you again for being with me today. And as we conclude, I only ask that you continue to be safe, be well, and continue to protect your nest.
Diana Rodgers, RD 1:02:34
Thanks so much for listening to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. If you liked the show, please leave a review on iTunes. And if you’d like to support the work I’m doing on Patreon please visit sustainabledish.com/join. As a Patreon subscriber, you’ll get access to ad-free podcasts, plus exclusive video podcasts, never before seen interviews, and a discussion community. Go to sustainabledish.com/join and thank you for your support.
