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Michelle Tam of Nom Nom Paleo is back on the show!
Michelle and I have been friends for 10 years. Her first visit on the podcast was way back in episode 12! Over the years, we’ve shared our love of food and many experiences.
In the episode today, we are catching up and chatting about getting ready for the Fall, making simple meals, shopping at Costco, and more! Listen in to find out:
- How Michelle simplifies her meals
- The importance of a well-stocked kitchen and labeling your freezer food
- The power of umami to make things delicious
- The role personality plays in how we cook
- What’s next for Michelle and Diana?
Be sure to check out all 3 of Michelle’s cookbooks:
Nom Nom Paleo Let’s Go: Simple Feasts & Healthy Eats
Ready or Not! 150+ Make-Ahead, Make-Over, & Make-Now Recipes
And her delicious line of spice blends:
Resources:
Samin Nosrat: Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat
Mark Bittman: Kitchen Express
Connect with Michelle:
Website: Nom Nom Paleo
Instagram: @nomnompaleo
Facebook: Nom Nom Paleo – Michele Tam
LinkedIn: Nom Nom Paleo
Pinterest: Nom Nom Paleo
Twitter: @nomnompaleo
Episode Credits:
Thank you to all who’ve made this show possible. Our hosts are Diana Rodgers and James Connelly. Our producer is Emily Soape. And, of course, we are grateful for our sponsors, Patreon supporters, and listeners.
If you’re ready to take your support for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable food system to the next level, join my Global Food Justice Alliance community on Patreon. You will have access to ad-free podcasts, exclusive videos, a discussion community, and much more. Go to sustainabledish.com/join to support my work.
It’s officially Sustainavore September! We’re launching the biggest Sustainavore community yet, and I’d love for you to be a part of it. If you’re ready to reclaim your best health, recover from chronic health issues and learn how real food, grown in a sustainable way can heal your body and the planet, join us at sustainavore.com.
You’ll get instant access to the entire course with tons of extra bonus material all in easy-to-follow modules. Plus, interact with me and a huge community of people just like you. Sign up now at sustainavore.com.
And if you’re ready to take your support for a nutritious, sustainable, and equitable food system to the next level, join my Global Food Justice Alliance community on Patreon. You will have access to ad-free podcasts, exclusive videos, a discussion community, and much more. Go to sustainabledish.com/join to support my work.
Quotes:
“I am all about ground meat. Ground meat is always cheapest, and you can quickly cook it.” – Michelle Tam
“If you look at the ingredients [spice blends are] just a bunch of spices and salt. You can put that on anything. Find one you love and use it on all the things.” – Michelle Tam
Transcript:
Diana Rodgers, RD
Welcome to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. I’m Diana Rodgers, a real food registered dietitian, author, and sustainability advocate. I co-host this podcast with James Connelly, who was a producer on my film Sacred Cow. I also founded the Global Food Justice Alliance, an initiative advocating for the inclusion of animal source foods like meat, dairy, and eggs for a more nutritious, sustainable, and equitable worldwide food system. You can check it out and join me at global food justice.org. Thanks again for listening. And now on to our show.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Hey, everyone, I am back here with my friend Michelle Tam. And I think this might be your third podcast with me on the show. I’m not even sure. Do you? You probably don’t remember.
Michelle Tam
I don’t remember. It’s been a while that you’ve haven’t invited me back.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Oh (laughs). So Michelle, I want everyone to know a little bit more about you. You have a super interesting background. We have been friends for like 10 years, I think at this point, almost.
Michelle Tam
I think at least 10 years, right? I don’t even remember when the first like paleo conference when we met, like, How long ago was that? I don’t even remember.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Is it the one that you blew me off at, or the first one where we actually became friends?
Michelle Tam
The first… probably the one where we became friends. Because when I blew you off, I just I didn’t…
Diana Rodgers, RD
It was 2011 in Los Angeles at UCLA.
Michelle Tam
Oh, so maybe we have been friends for 10 years.
Diana Rodgers, RD
At nine o’clock in the morning on the first day of the conference.
Michelle Tam
Wow. Hi. Hi. I’m sorry. I’ve been apologizing for this for 10 years.
Diana Rodgers, RD
I know. Michelle was under-caffeinated. And I fangirled her, and she blew me off. And um…
Michelle Tam
it wasn’t intentional. I was working nights. This is back when I blame it all on bad sleep habits and also just being kind of an asshole. So I’m sorry.
Diana Rodgers, RD
But since then, we made up. We’ve been to Costa Rica together. We walked in the rainforest together. We got off the boat, and we’re like, wow, this sounds just like the Rainforest Cafe except for it was real life.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, Diana likes to rough it more than I like to rough it. But I appreciate all the new experiences that you expose me to.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yes. Well, I am so excited that I get to text you whenever I have any random little question about like, how to use turmeric or whatever.
Michelle Tam
You know, it’s funny is I was just thinking how you actually influenced me on so many things, like a lot of things that people like, follow me for. I’m like, well, actually, the place I originally got the idea was from Diana because you’re always saying, “Oh, you need to read this new book.” And I’m like, “What! I don’t like to read.” Like, “No, this is really great book. It’s by the Glucose Goddess.” And I was like, “huh,” and I remember and because of you telling me about her Instagram, and you know, I got her book. I’ve totally changed how I, like, the order that I eat things. I have apple cider vinegar. I literally have little bottles that I take with me when I go out to eat. So I choke down some apple cider vinegar right before I eat something carby.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Wow!
Michelle Tam
Oh, that’s only one example. And then even this morning, I was like, Oh, I have to eat more protein. Like I have to make sure that my breakfast is mostly protein. Or at least you know, I have a good amount of protein. And so I did all that before this podcast with you.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Well, we do have the… even though our genetics are completely different, we actually do have nearly identical 23andme health markers. And so yeah, both very carb, I guess insensitive.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, unfortunately.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Right. And so you and I both struggle with blood sugar regulation and gluten sensitivity.
Michelle Tam
And we’re the same age. Yeah, so it’s like, and we have some… I think we have two kids. So you’re like the white version of me.
Diana Rodgers, RD
I’m proud to have that label. And so September’s rolling around. And I was thinking about, you know, coming up with this fall lineup of podcasts, and September tends to be like a reset month for a lot of people, a lot of moms. You know, it’s like kids are going back to school. And, you know, maybe they overindulged a little bit with like alcohol or ice cream or just treats or slipped into some bad habits over the summer. And I have always found that September is like everyone’s like, “Okay, I gotta get back on it.” Or at least get organized with you know, back to school. I know in California, you guys start way earlier than us with back-to-school. My kids don’t go back to school for another couple of weeks still.
Michelle Tam
My kids have been in school since – this is their third week.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yeah, that seems wrong.
Michelle Tam
And I don’t think they get out that much earlier than your kids.
Diana Rodgers, RD
No
Michelle Tam
I don’t understand. And you guys have snow days and stuff.
Diana Rodgers, RD
I know. Do you ever have weather-related school closures?
Michelle Tam
I’m not… Well, you know, recently they’ve had fires, and they’ve had, where there’s been terrible smoke and like the sky turned like this really scary, unnatural orange color. And I feel like there was some sort of… I don’t know? I think they just made people wear masks, but no weather-related – because weather… there is no weather anymore on the west coast. There used to be rain. But now there’s no rain. And it’s pretty like there are definitely hotter days and colder days, but there’s no snow and sleet and hail, and whatever it is, you guys get on the East Coast.
Diana Rodgers, RD
What we’re actually experiencing a really awful drought here in Massachusetts. Everyone’s lawn is brown. And I think the governor just issued a state of emergency because of that.
Michelle Tam
Yeah. We’ve had a drought for decades. Like it used to be like, Oh, my gosh, we have to conserve, and it was a big deal that we had a drought. But now everyone’s like, Oh, well, this is just how it is. And everyone has a brown lawn or, like me, they have a plastic lawn. Or there’s a lot of everybody – a lot of people also have like the native drought-resistant front yards, but we have a plastic green carpet, you know?
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yes.
Michelle Tam
In front and in back of our house.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yes, I remember that. You were quite ashamed to share that with me.
Michelle Tam
I know. And then you send us like these vultures like that we stick in our garden.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Flamingos.
Michelle Tam
Well, flamingos. They were black, though,
Diana Rodgers, RD
Because I thought they were funny that they were black. Anyhow, so people are like getting back on track. And this was really the whole point of having this podcast other than to just have a visit with you. But you know, like, quick, easy meals for weeknight. And I think, you know, a lot of times when people open a cookbook, they feel intimidated, or if they start a new diet, like a Whole30 or something like that. I think you know, as a practitioner, I know that a lot of people are like, Oh God, if I’m going to eat paleo, I need to be, you know, using this big complicated recipe with these scary ingredients like fish sauce that I’ve never used before, which now I use constantly, all the time. And so I thought we could just talk about making things simple, and these quote-unquote, recipes that really aren’t recipes at all, but just like throwing some yummy things together. You know, being mindful of making sure there’s enough protein and then also just like making it kind of a real food, quick thing.
Michelle Tam
Yeah. So I am all about this. Because even what… before, the reason why I started my blog was because I hated to cook. And I had no idea what people ate if they went paleo. So initially, I was just showing people Oh, these are the meals I’m packing when I go to work. This is what I’m making for my family. And so then, you know, the whole reason that our blog is the way it is, and our books are the way it is, is because it caters to people who love to eat, but hate to cook but want to feel good. And so I tried to make it as dummy-proof as possible. I try to make it as simple and delicious and to work the first time – have step-by-step pictures, have little cartoons cheering you on. Because I know I’m super unmotivated to get in the kitchen. Like most most nights. I mean, it’s different. Now it’s been a while. But I always try to show people, especially my Instagram stories, which are my day-to-day meals. Like look, it can be super simple. It is me putting a spice blend on the steaks, and I’m throwing them in the airfryer. And then I slice it up and then I make a salad with you know, you can use storebought there, you know. Paleo was so different from when we started. Like, there are… so you can buy salad dressings, flavored mayonnaise, and it’s all compatible and compliant. Like there’s just so – it’s hard not to, I mean, if you can’t throw something together, it’s probably because you really… you just don’t want to do it. Like I think you can really… And when people say “Oh, Paleo is so expensive,” like I was raised by Chinese immigrant parents. It’s all about being thrifty and, you know, squeezing every dime out of whatever you buy and buying things on sale. So, you know, I totally understand what people are like I don’t want to spend a ton of money. Like, I am all about ground meat. Ground meat is always cheapest. And you can quickly cook it. You can make stir fries and you can clean out your fridge with whatever’s you know, in your fridge. I have lots of frozen vegetables that are like pre-cut, pre-washed and you just dump it in with your meat and you have a delicious stir fry. And I also think people aren’t… I mean, we’ve been friends and paleo, Paleo-ish for over a decade and people aren’t so crazy about being perfectly paleo. And I don’t think I mean, if you are, I think it’s because you’re at the beginning of your journey, or you have some really, you know, you have some health issues that you really do need to deal with. But I think for most people, I think when you went paleo, you’re like, “Oh, I do feel better when I eat real food.” And when I pay attention to what I’m putting in my body, you just kind of keep being aware of those things. Like I think especially like this summer, we were like traveling lot and eating out a lot. And I was like, Oh, I don’t feel so great. And so it actually is kind of nice with the kids back at school. And you know, that I’m able to just make simple healthy meals again, but it’s really I just make it as simple as possible. Like I use my airfryer a ton, the microwave a ton. I just stir fry things in a giant pot, a instant pot. You know, braising cuts with some Rao’s marinara sauce, which is my favorite store bought sauce, which you can buy at Costco. You know what I mean? Like this? Like, sometimes people are like, “How does it like? How do you do it? I’m like, if you came into my house on a regular day, the food is not that exciting, but everybody eats it and is happy. And I’m happy that there aren’t a ton of dishes, you know.
Diana Rodgers, RD
So as somebody who has been to both of your houses multiple times, I can describe some of the things I’ve noticed that your house that make you set up for being really well prepared to whip something up out of nothing. So you have a really clear…
Michelle Tam
I was like, what is it?
Diana Rodgers, RD
I’ll tell you. You have a very well-stocked pantry, your spice blends that you have are there. You’ve got, you know, little packages of nuts, you’ve got different sauces. You’ve just got, like all the basics there so that if you have a package of ground meat, you can quickly transform that into anything just based on like a little dash of this or a little thing of that. That’s the first thing I’ve noticed. And then your freezer is full of leftovers, like you freeze, like the potsticker things I’ve seen at both locations that are delicious. Paleo potstickers not like just random potstickers from the grocery store. You have like leftover beef stew. You’ve got everything labeled, so you know what it is which I sometimes struggle with just not labeling something because I get lazy.
Michelle Tam
And then you regret it later because you have no idea what that is.
Diana Rodgers, RD
So it’s just a matter of like actually getting a Sharpie and some masking tape so that you can label the container.
Michelle Tam
Yes, I have that in like in my favorite drawer in the kitchen. That is what I have – painters tape and a Sharpie. But you know, these things that you bring up, I feel kind of sheepish about it because I am a cookbook author, and a food blogger so my kitchen is going to be very different from a normal person’s. And so I will have tons of stuff in my pantry and I will have tons of leftovers because I’m always cooking, I’m always recipe testing, but you don’t necessarily need all those things. I think that there are just a few things you need. And they really will level up your cooking and make it so that it’s not a chore. And I think a lot of people think that cooking is a chore but you have to think of it, like brushing your teeth or doing taxes like you just have to cook for yourself. That’s just something you have to do. But I think in the 70s, and 80s like people just tried to, you know, get out of it. Because they’re like, “Oh, we can do these microwave meals or do something really quick and convenient.” But because we did that, like I think a lot of people’s health suffered. And they never paid attention to what they were eating. You know, even though their grandma and grandpa, whoever would spend all this time kind of just cooking really delicious meals but with basic things. And so, I mean, I think you… I always talk about umami and how it’s important to know what foods have umami and umami is the fifth taste so besides salty, sweet, bitter, and sour. There’s this taste called umami which is just indescribable, savoriness or meatiness and certain foods, add it or have a lot of it, like mushrooms, tomatoes, anchovies, meat, bacon, like all the things that tastes really good. They’re high in umami. And when you combine different ingredients that have high umami, the amount of deliciousness is actually exponential. There is something called umami synergy and there’s this institute in Japan that studies it. And so let’s say you put in two umami ingredients, let’s say you you’re making a stew and so the beef has umami and you add mushrooms and tomato. So those are all three things have a lot of umami, it just tastes better than what you would expect by putting those three things together.
Diana Rodgers, RD
If you were to just make like a like a beef stew without mushrooms and not adding tomato paste into it
Michelle Tam
Right or you add a dash of fish sauce, or, you know, or like powdered mushroom, you know what I mean? So there’s, there’s different things like when you dry, or preserve these ingredients that have umami, it actually increases the amount of umami because it like concentrates it. So I think it’s just kind of keeping some anchovy paste or fish sauce in your fridge or a tube of tomato paste. I mean, those things are just going to make things taste better. Or like find a spice blend you like, you know, like there’s all these… I mean, I have a bunch of spice blends, but other people have spice blends too.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Where can people get… Can they buy yours? Because I know you sent me some with your last cookbook and I use them and they just magically… I just sprinkle it on chicken and grill it and it’s like, oh!
Michelle Tam
Yeah, you can buy them on Amazon. There’s a company that makes it for us is called The Spice Lab. And if you go to spices.com and you search for Nom Nom Paleo like I have blends, but so many people have blends like Primal Palate has amazing spice blends. You can go to your local spice shop. Penzeys has great spice blends.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Let’s talk about some of your favorites just so people can get them. So, for me, the Primal Palate meat and potatoes spice blend is fantastic on potatoes, on any animal-source protein, even fish. It’s really good. That one is just… I use that one a ton.
Michelle Tam
Yes. And I think people should not use the… I mean, I think a lot of times they’re suggestions on spice blend. Yeah, this would be great on this or this. But I think that limits people sometimes because sometimes they’re like, Oh, I think I can only use this on seafood because it says it’s a seafood blend and I was like no, it’s… if you look at the ingredients, is just a bunch of spices and salt. You can put that on anything you know. So don’t… Find one you love and use it on all the things.
Diana Rodgers, RD
The ones that have salt added in them, I just find a little bit easier to use.
Michelle Tam
Me too.
Diana Rodgers, RD
The Super Gyro one from Penzeys is also really really good. And that one I use when I’m marinating chicken or I actually do cook chicken. Again on fish a lot like sometimes just really nice to have that like heavy oregano flavor sometimes, but what are some of your favorites?
Michelle Tam
Well, I love all my spice blends, because I use them all the time. But I do love I mean I have tons of spice blends like I like in terms of the Primal Palate ones. I love their adobo seasoning I like and I use that kind of on everything. I also like a lot of Indian curry powders. And you know, it’s just a recent thing. Like I didn’t even realize that there’s no such thing as like curry powder when you go to India, that’s just like a total British, like, colonial thing like colonizer thing where they just call it curry but like the spice blends are these masalas. There’s tons of different ones. And you just kind of find when you like and every family has a different one.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Do you see a difference between the curry pastes versus the curry powders?
Michelle Tam
I think like the curry paste like for Thai food. I think that’s more common for it to be in a in a paste form. But yeah, there’s tons of different… I have lots of curry paste because that’s like a super simple stew that you can make quickly with like chicken thighs, you just… I love Aroy-D and what other brands are like? Aroy-D is a good one cuz it doesn’t have any weird stuff in it. They’re kind of salty. And they’re kind of spicy, but the ones you buy at the Asian store, I think are really good. And then you just kind of throw in a can of coconut milk, and maybe a little fish sauce and you throw in some like boneless, skinless something. Like I know you don’t like chicken like you probably put in some… I don’t know like it would beef that much but like you…
Diana Rodgers, RD
I actually cooked with tofu the other night.
Michelle Tam
Oh, wow. See, we wouldn’t be able to even talk about this years ago.
Diana Rodgers, RD
I know! Well, so the reason I did is because I was when I was in Australia I went out to dinner and with there was four of us: Charlie Arnott, Dr. Pran Yoganathan, me, and then a woman who was a vet. And she and I were both gluten-free and we were looking at the menu, and there was a gigantic ribeye on the menu. And then the only other gluten-free thing was a cauliflower curry. And we decided to share both, and so this cauliflower curry comes out. And it was a yellow curry, and it had this amazing tofu that actually tasted really good. And some vegetables and roasted cauliflower, and I tried to recreate that here. And so I got yellow curry paste which ended up being way spicier than I anticipated. And you know what I did is I added a bunch of yogurt at the end, and it totally fixed it. I almost texted you actually. See it was delicious.
Michelle Tam
That sounds really good. I mean, I think for a lot of people… I think that like the two of us, I think initially when we found paleo, it’s like, oh, let’s try to eat and feel really good. But I think we realized, like, I don’t think you should try to make it as restrictive as possible. I think you try to make it as expansive as kind of fits in your kind of framework. Before when I was like, like a semi-vegetarian, all I ate was like, tofu soy stuff, and whole grains. And I never thought about it. And I never thought about how I felt. But now like, if I’m at a restaurant, and there’s like a tasty gluten-free tofu, something like Oh, like, oh, that sounds really good. And I will have some, because I actually do like, there’s a lot of tofu dishes that I’ve missed, because I wasn’t eating them because they weren’t paleo. But, you know, as long as I, as long as they kind of understand there’s probably better sources of protein. But once in awhile, I could have a really tasty tofu dish, and it’s not a problem.
Diana Rodgers, RD
There’s worse ways to go off the rails. Yes. Yeah, and that Thai Kitchen red curry paste I have found is like something you can get anywhere like in almost all grocery stores, that a little fish sauce and a can of coconut milk. is all you need to make the most delicious red Thai curry that you can put any vegetable and any meat in. Yeah, probably better with chicken or, or fish, maybe.
Michelle Tam
Thai Kitchen is available, I think, everywhere. Like you can get it at like Kroger’s and stuff. I do think I always joke that that one is more of the kind of watered down.
Diana Rodgers, RD
It’s not as spicy. I mean, then when you switch to a more authentic Asian brand, and you realize, well, that is a lot spicier than I thought it would be.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, Thai Kitchen I think, is a good beginner one. Yeah. And then went to like, Oh, I really liked this, but it’s not quite the same as like, I mean, it might be kind of similar to like, a more Americanized Thai place. But you know, yeah, if you’re going to an authentic place, you’re like, oh, what makes it different? It’s like, oh, all this other stuff that’s in the curry paste that like you’re like, Whoa, it’s like, so there’s so many dimensions to this.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Let’s maybe walk through a day and give like three simple breakfasts, three simple lunches, and three simple dinners. Just to give people ideas that are like, something that is like an easy go-to for you.
Michelle Tam
Breakfast is almost always leftovers. Like I know, people are like, “oh, what can I make that’s egg-free?” Or like, “I like pancakes, or I want to have like egg bites or something.” Like, I was like, no, just make leftovers. Like I literally just had some leftovers right before I hopped on this podcast with you. And so I always try to make sure I have some sort of protein and some sort of vegetable. And that is my breakfast like, and if not, let’s say I have nothing. I have no leftovers whatsoever, then I will make some eggs really quickly. But and then, this is also me, like learning from like, oh, eggs actually don’t have that much protein because each one is like six grams, right? So even if I ate three eggs, it’s only 18 grams of protein. And so if I have eggs, I’ll throw in a sausage or something. And so then I just make sure that my protein is like adequate. And I also have vegetables, and then I’ll if I have some sort of drink, it might be like a matcha latte, but then I’ll put in some collagen peptides. So that’s another like 10 grams right there of protein. See, I’m always looking out for it in my food. But breakfast, I don’t stress about it. And sometimes I have like a brunch. So like I won’t eat breakfast or lunch until maybe 10. And I’ll just make something really big because it’ll be my leftovers from the night before. And then, if I need a small snack in the middle, after listening to the Glucose Goddess, I can’t make it be something like a naked carb. Like, I’ll pair it with some nuts and I’ll have some salami. Actually, one of my easiest breakfasts that I have, that my kids think is disgusting, but I do it all the time, is if I literally have no time and I’m really busy. I will crack open a can of fish or smoked oysters or something. And, you know, and people are like that, well that sounds disgusting. I’m like, No, it is fast, easy. And there’s no cleanup because I just throw it in the recycle bin. And depending on what can of whatever you’re having, that’s like a good 25 grams of protein right there.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Totally is, and I’m on the same page as you, but you and I are weirdos in that way.
Michelle Tam
I know, I know. People think it’s ridiculous but I’m like, you know sometimes a meal is just a meal. Even though I love food, but sometimes, you know, I have so much stuff I have to do and so I’m like I just have to get something in that will satisfy me, and is good for me. And then dinner – it’s normally a combination, for me, of like, recipe testing, like whatever I’m testing, everybody just eats it for dinner. But I always have some sort of meaty main dish. And then side dishes. I always have like, I tried to have at least two vegetables in there. It doesn’t mean I have two vegetable dishes, but there’s at least two vegetables present. So like if it’s a salad, it can’t just be greens. But salad is a really fast side dish for me. Or I also micro-steam vegetables all the time, now because…
Diana Rodgers, RD
What’s that?
Michelle Tam
So they’re…
Diana Rodgers, RD
Oh, microwave steam,
Michelle Tam
Yeah. Microwave steam, so instead of blanching vegetables, or steaming vegetables, they’re these new bowls that I bought. And I’m not affiliated. This is like the whole Instant Pot situation. But they’re these bowls called Anyday Bowls. And they’re these glass bowls. And they have like a vent on the top. And so it’s like perfectly sealed off but there’s a vent and so it perfectly steamed stuff. And so I’m always like micro-steaming vegetables. I will micro-steam broccoli, and it takes like two and a half minutes. I’ll micro-steam like sugar snap peas. Everyone’s like, Oh, I like sugar snap peas raw. Yeah, but if they’re just blanched, they’re even better. And bok choy, kale, like I just micro steam it. And then I might throw on a sauce. I might throw on like my all-purpose stir fry sauce, my umami stir fry powder, and I just toss it and that is the vegetable side that literally took three minutes. And there’s no cleanup except putting that container in the dishwasher. But like the main dish could be anything like it could be whatever I’m developing, but in terms of quick things that I make a lot like I always make a lot of stir fries. Like I always have brown meat and I’ll throw in vegetables that I just chop up or frozen vegetables like the frozen medley is super fast and just throw that in. And you season it with my all-purpose stir fry sauce or umami stir fry powder.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Well, I think a lot of people who make stir fries get scared by the sauce aspect of it. And they maybe have only used soy sauce in the past or…
Michelle Tam
Oh, that’s gross.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Right? Yeah, but they don’t know that you actually don’t want to just lead with only soy sauce.
Michelle Tam
No, like soy sauce is great. And it’s super high in umami, but it’s also very salty. Like, it’s just like Samin Nosrat’s book: Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. You should kind of think of that anytime you’re kind of cooking that you should have salt, it should have fat should have some sort of acid and you should be cooking it somehow, right? Unless you’re making a salad but it’s like, so I think I always remember the umami part and like so my spice blends and my stir fry powder, those are packed in umami. And there’s also like in my stir fry sauce. It’s got like, coconut aminos, fish sauce, orange juice, garlic and ginger. And so it’s got all of those things. It’s got like sweet, sour, savory, umami. So you just put it in and you can use it as a dipping sauce, you can make a salad dressing with it. Like I don’t try to complicate things. Like if I make one…. like I just posted a like a Whole30 caesar dressing. And so we’re having Caesar salad all the time, or like the sugar snap peas. I micro- steamed it, I stuck it in the fridge. Then I’m gonna pour some of that Caesar dressing on it. I’m just using that Caesar dressing on all the things just because it’s there and it tastes good. And so you should put it on different things. And you can quickly cook like fish. Like I’m always making fish and steak and chicken in the airfryer because it’s so fast. And everyone’s like, Oh, the airfryer is so amazing. Like it’s just like a little oven on your counter. That’s all it is. But it has like a little turbo fan so it cooks faster and is more even. But I just tried to make things really easy and fast.
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Diana Rodgers, RD
Let’s talk about like some of your easy combinations. So you first of all, what’s your favorite brand of tuna?
Michelle Tam
Hmm. I don’t know that I eat tuna that much. There is actually a really good tuna belly that I used to get from Vital Choice all the time. Like they’re Ventresca. And they came in these like fancy, like, even their label was all fancy. And I think they had like, it just was really fancy looking. But that tuna belly in olive oil was really good, but it was really expensive. I think each can was like oh, this is a lot of money. So I divide that into two breakfasts when I ate it. I actually have been getting a lot of the – there are these sardines you can get at Costco. I can’t remember the brand, but they’re in olive oil and they’re skinless and boneless. And sometimes I know people will go with the skin and the bones have like a lot of the nutrition that you want but you know sometimes they just want to eat something really fast and so that like and it even has like a peel top it has like the foil instead of like cracking it open where it’s sometimes like breaks off. So I just I buy whatever brand it is there’s some it’s got like some mermaid or something on the cover. I think it’s from Italy. I don’t know. But it’s like inexpensive and really tasty and I think I always I do Safe Catch a lot just because I know that they check on the mercury and all the other bad things that could be in seafood.
Diana Rodgers, RD
But Costco is awesome. And as you mentioned earlier – Rao’s Am I pronouncing that right? I never really say it out loud in my head.
Michelle Tam
I used to say Rao’s but apparently is Rao’s.
Diana Rodgers, RD
I was just watching Cooks Country and they voted that one by far the outstanding best pasta sauce there is.
Michelle Tam
Yeah. And you can get that at Costco. I literally just did a Costco run yesterday. And there is so much available at Costco that’s like healthy good food that is inexpensive. I mean, anytime I show it – like I get really excited about Costco, just like any good Asian female because apparently, the avatar for the average Costco shopper is like an Asian woman in her late 30s. And was like, Well, I have 10 years on that. But I still appreciate Costco.
Diana Rodgers, RD
You look like your late 30s. You know what I saw at Costco and I thought you – Bird’s Nest Soup? At Costco.
Michelle Tam
They have all sorts of stuff and depending on the Costco, so they do have regional stuff. So our Costco in the Bay Area, because there’s so many Asians here like there are certain things that they stock there that they don’t have, like I think in Massachusetts, I’m actually surprised they have Bird’s Nest soup.Diana Rodgers, RD
I was shocked. I mean, we have a good Asian population.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, that may be why.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yeah, but I mean to be buying Bird’s Nest Soup in bulk is pretty hardcore.
Michelle Tam
And I remember when I went to, I went to some dinner, and it was about like the MSC like the Marine Stewardship Council. And so I was talking to the guy was like, Is it okay to buy like the fish and seafood at Costco? You know, is that stuff all MSC certified or whatever? And he was like, yeah, they are. Like, they don’t all have the label but everything at Costco, you can feel good about buying all their wild stuff. And I think they said even the farm stuff, they make sure that their whatever the equivalent to MSC is, you know, the farm just like the whatever. So I was like, oh, and the Chilean sea bass, the wild Chilean sea bass at Costco is amazing. And it’s not super cheap, but it’s definitely cheaper than if you buy it elsewhere. And they’re like, individually quick frozen, and you can quickly thaw it and I can season it. Throw it in my air fryer.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yeah. I have a lot of people that they cannot get their head around eating tinned fish for breakfast. I don’t know if they think it’s wacky. I mean, I’ll even put tuna just in my omelet. But the egg bites at Costco are – my kids really, really liked them a lot.
Michelle Tam
My kids too. That’s the reason why we went to Costco is because the kids are eating egg bites for breakfast before they go to school. And they’re not. I mean, obviously, they have dairy. And I don’t know, there might be some like weird…
Diana Rodgers, RD
They might have some seed oils in them. Yeah. But…
Michelle Tam
What am I gonna make 24 Egg bites and freeze them? I’m probably not gonna.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yeah, and I think in the, you know, I think you and I have always been pretty moderate in our extremism when it comes to kids and eating and not making it a religion. And, you know, I look at the overall health status of my very athletic, healthy kids and what other kids are eating and what my kids eat, and we’re doing pretty good. I think we’re doing pretty good. I think in general, the majority of their food is real food, healthy food. And they’re doing great. And if they want to eat some egg bites from Costco that have some seed oils in them, if it saves me a little bit of time in the morning, which I’m a little tight on sometimes, and they can just grab them and get out the door then. That’s one of the first-world problems that I’m going to deal with here.
Michelle Tam
Yeah. And I think in terms of lunches, like my kids are in high school, and so I don’t have time, and I was like, please, I really don’t want to be making your lunches now that you guys are in high school, you know, so you have to, we have to figure out what you can quickly throw together that we’re both happy with that you’ll eat and is relatively healthy. And so like for example, like one thing we’ve been making for weeks is pesto chicken. Like we’ll have some cooked chicken. And there’s a store bought pesto that I really like that doesn’t have weird oils or anything in it. And we literally shred the chicken and toss it with the pesto. And then he brings it in a little thermos that keeps it cool. And then we have lots of vegetables that they can just cut up like cucumbers, those sugar snap peas that I have micro steam, they’re in the fridge, so they just throw them in their lunch. There’s nectarines that they cut up, washed grapes. And then there’s like we have kind of like a junk, like a healthy junk but like junk nonetheless, where they’ll grab like some, you know, cookies are something to bring in. But I’m always like, you have to have some sort of protein and some sort of vegetable or fruit. And then you can add, you know your bonus later.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yeah, pesto is one of those great things I’ve really… my Phoebe has always been really into pesto ever since she was little a little kid. And so we would get the brand Bear Pond pesto, which is super green. And I think it’s because they don’t add nuts to it. And it’s not. It’s not necessarily that we wanted a nut-free pesto, it just happens to be a really delicious pesto that we that available at the Whole Foods near us. But Basil is so high in vitamin C.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, I remember you saying how pesto was so nutrient dense it is
Diana Rodgers, RD
It is and so ever since they were little little little I made them green eggs and ham for breakfast. And so that’s another tip that I give people for breakfast is because eggs are not super high in protein necessarily to add some ham to that like three ounces or so of ham. Then you’re getting closer to 30 grams of protein, which is what I try to get people to eat in the morning. And people are just so funny about needing it to be breakfast food. Yeah, sometimes I can talk them into like sliced turkey, if they’re like really freaking out about the idea of fish or leftovers for some reason. Sliced Turkey and I’ll do that for my kids every once in a while and I’ll actually sauteed in a pan like to round it up a little bit and they’ll just eat that with some avocado or something.
Michelle Tam
Hide the fact that it’s turkey. I am not a fan of Turkey.
Diana Rodgers, RD
No?
Michelle Tam
We have a lot of sausage like the kind of already pre-cooked sausage. So that’s always like a quick default, like, throw a sausage in the pan really quick and heat it up.
Diana Rodgers, RD
And they can be dinner sausages for breakfast.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, yeah. Or you could have sausages for dinner, like very easily. You have sausages and then make it a dinner.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Oh yeah, eggs and sausage actually is one of the fastest easiest dinners you could possibly do. And then throw a little pesto on those eggs, and you’ve got your greens and your extra vitamin C and all that stuff.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, yeah, I think people… And you know, maybe some people do have time to make really elaborate dinners and lunches and all that stuff. And I think that’s great. I wish I had the time to kind of do all those things. But realistically, like you kind of just have to do what you can do. And I think you also have to, like if it is too much of a chore and you aren’t the only person in your household. It could be that you are just taking too much on and you need to delegate. You know, as a mom, you can’t just be a martyr and say I’m going to cook and clean and do all the things. Like we just started something just last week, which has been working out really great. Where I mean already the kids do all the cleaning of the dishes after dinner.
Diana Rodgers, RD
They do. That is very impressive.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, I mean, the three boys, so they have to figure out – so sometimes Henry helps out, but most of the time, it’s the two boys. Yeah. And they have to unload the dishwasher in the morning. And then we started this thing where it’s like we set the timer for 15 minutes after dinner, like after we’ve had dinner and we’ve like watched as much TV as well, we do this 15 minute cleaning up where we set the timer and we just go and clean. And 15 minutes actually doesn’t sound like that much. But it’s actually a really long time. And you can totally clean all sorts of stuff. And so it’s been really nice, because like in the mornings now we’ll like get up and like our kitchen is clean. It’s never, I don’t know, for a lot of people they like to that’s how our house always is. But for our house, that’s not how it always is. And so that’s like our quick and I learned that from this blogger I know named Shutterbean and she used to call it “High Straight-nance,” because it was like something. It’s like her straightening up. And it’s like this maintenance thing that she would do every day for 15 minutes. And I was like, and I remember seeing her do it. I’m like, “Oh, that’s so cute.” And then when we actually tried it, I was like wow, this is really great. And the kids are also like, “Wow, we get a lot clean in 15 minutes and when everybody’s chipping in.” It actually makes it really easy and when the 15 minutes is up, you will actually kind of continue because there are certain things you want to finish. And I find that when I’m with this, like 15 minute timer, I am way more willing to throw certain things away that I wouldn’t be otherwise, because you have this kind of time thing. And so if I’m putting stuff away, and then I look at the expiration, I’m like, “Whoa, that expired two years ago.” So instead of putting it back on the shelf, I will actually throw it away. Yeah. That’s the problem with having such a full pantry.
Diana Rodgers, RD
That is. Yeah, right. Because you’re gonna have some stuff in there that…
Michelle Tam
Or also, like, a lot of people send me stuff, you know, a lot of times and because I don’t want to ever throw things away, I just keep it, but then I don’t eat it, and it gets wasted anyway. And so, yeah, there are times when I was like, Whoa, look at this, this bottle says that expired in 2020. And I just don’t think it would be a good idea for me to serve this to my family.
Diana Rodgers, RD
You know, I think that’s a great tip. I, um, people, I think one of the reasons people dislike cooking is because of the mess. I am pretty orderly person. And I can’t stand going to bed with dirty dishes in the sink or a dirty kitchen. And so that actually makes me more conscious of the mess level I’m making when I cook. But I think for people that aren’t thinking seven steps ahead of like, what’s gonna be the easiest path to me not being stressed out later. And three dishes is easier to clean than 17. I will look at a recipe and decide that looks messy and not make it. So yeah, anything I can make in one pot with as few ingredients as possible. Or, you know, also substituting like just knowing what to substitute, okay, I don’t have parsley, I’ll just throw some cilantro in this or just like knowing that you don’t have to have every single thing.
Michelle Tam
You are definitely more adventurous than I think most people when it comes to substitution of ingredients. Because I remember… I don’t… I think we text each other all the time or like when we’re together. Like, why don’t have this, I’ll just throw this in. And I’m like, “What?” because like, for me, I’m always like, Oh, no, I need to have it exactly how it is. But I think that just showed me I’m like, No, you can be more flexible, and it’ll still taste delicious. It’ll just taste a little different or you know, won’t be exactly the same. But maybe this will be even better. Because you substituted something and you know, you have it and you’re actually cooking a meal. As opposed to saying I don’t have it. I’m going to eat this frozen pizza, or I’m going to get takeout or you know, right.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Well, actually, that’s why I would love for you to make this cookbook book. Where is it? This one right here. This cookbook Mark Bittman’s Kitchen Express. I actually I buy several copies of it to give away and I’m not even a huge Mark Bittman fan personally of him. But this cookbook is amazing. Because it just has paragraphs on what you can throw together to make it something. So this is how I cook.
Michelle Tam
No, see, I think that works for you. And I think for some people, you have to reach that point. Because I think a lot of people feel very unsure. And when it’s just like, just throw some oil in a pan and then throw in some onions and sprinkle on some salt. And you know, like, that’s all. That all sounds good. And especially if you’re an experienced cook, right? That sounds like oh, that sounds totally natural. But for people who have just grown up watching Food Network, but haven’t actually cooked anything. And you can kind of see like, there’s all these kind of funny Tiktoks I mean, I don’t watch a lot of Tiktok but my kid does. And so one of my kid does the other one doesn’t. But like there are all these crazy Tiktok cooking things where sometimes I’m like, Yeah, that’s so obvious.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Oh, yes. Like, the foldover quesadilla thing that turns into four quarters, and then it’s a sandwich.
Michelle Tam
There are other people who do like disgusting cooking things you like, why would they think that’s okay. And so I think there’s definitely, I think cooking is something that people need to do daily to practice. And I think that until they kind of reach a certain proficiency and comfort level. It’s hard to just kind of throw them in and just say, “Oh, you don’t, you don’t need to measure.”
Diana Rodgers, RD
Well, it’s also a personality thing, right? I mean, like I actually just throw myself into, I think I’m just gonna make a movie now.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, that is very you. Yes.
Diana Rodgers, RD
So maybe that’s, maybe it’s a personality thing? I don’t know. But it is helpful in the beginning – the videos like when you got me my first instant pot, which I still have. I was so scared to death of this thing. And I watched like probably three of your videos before I even felt comfortable like plugging it in and cranking it down because I have used those other pressure cookers, like way back, way back. And they’re scary because you know that they can explode. And so I had a very healthy fear of instant pots. Kombucha same thing. When I decided I wanted to try making kombucha I actually watched a whole bunch of videos on how to do it before I actually was comfortable doing it, because that’s just how I learn. If I have to read directions on something, I’m much more likely to skip several lines and just jump ahead.
Michelle Tam
Right. That’s why YouTube is so popular. And that’s why kids just love you too. Because it is easier to watch someone showing you how to do it, then, you know, reading instructions, but sometimes I just want to know, like, I just want to read what I have to do instead of having to sift through some dumb video where the guys like, “okay, smash that subscribe button.”
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yeah, they talk to you about their whole day first before they actually get down to business with the recipe. Okay, well, I don’t know if that was helpful for anybody. I’m hoping that some folks maybe just got a little more comfortable with the fact that things don’t have to be perfect, that you can go and you don’t… you can experiment with some chicken or some tofu once in a while. And it’s okay. And you’re still an okay person. If you buy your things at Costco and save some money. And there happens to be some seed oils in it, it’s not the end of the world. Everything in context. What other big takeaways do we have for people? Get some Rao’s pasta sauce?
Michelle Tam
Yeah, Rao’s is really good. There are some other brands that I think are pretty good.
Diana Rodgers, RD
There’s another one that I just use last night. Actually, that’s really good. But I think the key is olive oil and real tomatoes in there.
Michelle Tam
Yeah. And I think their tomatoes are really good. And just I don’t know, maybe they have some Italian grandmothers, blessing their sauces, but it’s really good. And it is, it is 1000 times better than like Prego or Ragu that I grew up eating because I remember, I crack open one of those jars. And like, it was so gross. And I think when I finally had like, really great tomato sauce, I was like, what this is? How can they bottle this and sell this, and pretend this is like the same thing?
Diana Rodgers, RD
What’s going on with you? Like for next step. So you’ve got three cookbooks now under your belt? What’s next?
Michelle Tam
Um, you know, I think I’m just working on the blog. Like, I think that’s kind of my thing, where, you know, I put up a new recipe every week, but I don’t know, but another book in our future, I kind of like kind of ending it with a trilogy. But the last book just came out in January, so it is very freshly born. And so I have no amnesia yet. I don’t know. I think I’ve just kind of, you know, keep on keeping on and making recipes. And that’s kind of it. I mean, I don’t think – it’s really funny, I was joking with Henry. I was like, you know, we’re kind of at that age where we have to start thinking about, like, slowing down, slowing down. You know, like, I think I just don’t have that, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I just had a lot more like, I don’t know if it’s drive, or ambition, but now I’m like, You know what, I’m almost 50 And I’ve worked really hard. And I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna do the things I like to do and I’m not gonna stress out about it.
Diana Rodgers, RD
That’s awesome.
Michelle Tam
Whereas your like, go, go, go, go go.
Diana Rodgers, RD
No, actually, well, I took the month of August as a little bit of a, you know, tried very hard not to work as much as I have been. I’m actually coming out – I’ll be in Sacramento for the World Butcher’s Challenge.
Michelle Tam
When is that?
Diana Rodgers, RD
The first week of September? End of September?
Michelle Tam
How long are you here?
Diana Rodgers, RD
I am just there. I get there Thursday night really late. And then Friday, Saturday, and I leave on Sunday.
Michelle Tam
I’ll text you. I don’t know if I can come up to see you.
Diana Rodgers, RD
That’s all right. Some other time. I want to get up to Portland too.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, for sure.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yeah. And then I’ll be in Dublin at the International Meat Summit. And we’re publishing a white paper on meat, and I’m going to be an author on that. So I’m excited.
Michelle Tam
Henry is going to Dublin.
Diana Rodgers, RD
I’ll connect with him.
Michelle Tam
At the end of September he’ll be in Dublin.
Diana Rodgers, RD
This is late October. He’s there often, though. Maybe. Maybe he needs another trip. I don’t know. But I’ve also been just trying to be a little more strategic about how I spend my time and just start working out with a new trainer and just trying to get more into boundaries and health and making sure that I am well rested and healthy.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, I think that’s all you can ask. Right? You know, you reach a certain age, and it’s either you have a crazy midlife crisis, or you just kind of assess things and you just, you know, you make a plan.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Right? All right, well, people can find you at nomnompaleo.com and on Instagram at Nom Nom Paleo and three of your books are on Amazon,
Michelle Tam
Or anywhere books are sold. You not need to buy them on Amazon. But it is
Diana Rodgers, RD
That’s right. Or anywhere books are sold. You do not need to buy them on Amazon. In fact, please don’t. Yeah,
Michelle Tam
I think you should support your local bookseller.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yes. Except for the one in Concord that doesn’t sell my book, but the other ones.
Michelle Tam
Yeah, you can just pick any local bookseller, and they will ship it to you like even if it’s not your local bookseller.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Yes. All right. Great. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Michelle.
Michelle Tam
No, it’s so much fun.
Diana Rodgers, RD
I’ll talk to you soon. Bye.
Diana Rodgers, RD
Thanks so much for listening to the Sustainable Dish Podcast. If you liked the show, please leave a review on iTunes. And if you’d like to support the work I’m doing on Patreon, please visit sustainabledish.com/join. As a Patreon subscriber, you’ll get access to ad-free podcasts, plus exclusive video podcasts, never before seen interviews, and a discussion community. Go to sustainabledish.com/join, and thank you for your support.
